Transubstantiation Unsubstantiated

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='picchick' date='04 September 2009 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1252120806' post='1961163']
"Unless you Eat my Flesh and Drink my Blood you have no life within you."

Doesn't Jesus say this? And don't the people question? And doesn't Jesus correct them saying HIS Body and HIS Blood?
[/quote]

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
you seem to be having problems with the quote system

if you'd like to respond to multiple posts, just hit the "multi-quote" button on each post, then click "add reply". if you click the "reply" button directly on a post, it will take you to a new screen where it will have already quoted the post you wished to reply to.

hope this helps. as it is, i'm merging your posts so as to not create any undue confusion. God bless.

[CorMaria]

Certain thick people seem to look past 1600 years of almost unanimous testimony to this Christian belief.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 September 2009 - 12:52 AM' timestamp='1252212765' post='1961679']
[font="Comic Sans MS"]How do we get new life? [/font][color="#008000"][font="Comic Sans MS"]"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, ye have [u]no life in you[/u]"[/font] [font="Comic Sans MS"]{John 6:53}[/font][/color]

[font="Comic Sans MS"][color="#0000ff"]WHAT DID HE WISH TO CONVEY? THE ANSWER IS FOUND LATER IN JOHN 20:31 . . .[/color][/font]

[font="Comic Sans MS"]IT IS BY [/font]

[color="#ff0000"][font="Comic Sans MS"]believing that Jesus is the Christ, [u]that we have life.[/u][/font][/color]

[font="Comic Sans MS"][color="#0000ff"]In 1 Cor 10:4 we are metaphorically told that in the Old Testament, those wandering in the wilderness [i]"drank" [/i]from their spiritual Rock, who was Christ. The water that flowed from an actual rock was indeed literal water so they would not die of thirst, but the language of Scripture which turns Christ into a beverage, as it were, was [u]not[/u] meant to be taken literally as even all Catholics will agree (See any Bible Commentary of your choice on this verse). Thus, since the idea of [i]"drinking"[/i] Christ in a figurative sense was introduced in the Old Testament, all rational reasoning demands we keep the same typology when we come to the New Testament (1 Cor 2:13).[/color][/font]

[font="Comic Sans MS"][color="#0000ff"][/color][/font]
[/quote]

Those who believe act. Those who believe that Jesus is the Christ believe what He has said and act upon it. Jesus has said to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. To do so brings life because faith leads us to act accordingly. So it is receiving the Eucharist (and doing anything else God instructs through faith) that brings life, both because the Eucharist is Jesus, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and because we act in faith in receiving Him.

I don't see a contradiction here.

As for the drinking analogy, Christ makes it quite clear in John 6 that He was being literal. No need to show the verse, it's already been brought up. Of course, it's one of the verses you've already disregarded, along with some of the other Scriptures you disregard.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='05 September 2009 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1252212878' post='1961682']
[i]I[/i] see now - turns out, Christ was just a liar!


Ok, maybe that's harsh. But apparently, He was a waffler, changing his story from drinking of His Blood and eating of His Flesh to just only believing in him.


Wait a minute....do you mean to tell me that John Kerry is Jesus!?
[/quote]
John Kerry is a Catholic myth; he's not in the Bible anywhere.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 September 2009 - 01:00 AM' timestamp='1252213225' post='1961690']
John Kerry is a Catholic myth; he's not in the Bible anywhere.
[/quote]
Apostolic Tradition, you heretic.

Edited September 6, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='06 September 2009 - 12:15 AM' timestamp='1252214138' post='1961702']
Apostolic Tradition, you heretic.
[/quote]
There is no tradition in the Bible, and nor are there heretics. Heretics are a myth.

[Nihil Obstat]

I feel dirty even joking like that.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='05 September 2009 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1252212878' post='1961682']
[i]I[/i] see now - turns out, Christ was just a liar!


Ok, maybe that's harsh. But apparently, He was a waffler, changing his story from drinking of His Blood and eating of His Flesh to just only believing in him.


Wait a minute....do you mean to tell me that John Kerry is Jesus!?
[/quote]

[font="Comic Sans MS"][color="#0000ff"] By describing Himself as the "Bread of Life" in verse 35, the Catholic Church admits that up to verse 47, [i]"the teaching and the meaning, at least up to this point, is purely symbolic" [/i](Not By Bread Alone, by R. Sungenis, p. 172). Hence, the Catholic Church bids us to believe that Jesus was speaking [u]metaphorically[/u] when He says He was the bread that came down from heaven, but then spoke [u]literally[/u] when He told them to [i]eat it! [/i]This is pure nonsense. Jesus used this "oral oratory" in John 6 to set the table---but not for Him being the main course! It was to convey the idea of [i]believing[/i] in Him, period. [i]"He that cometh to me [/i][not he who eats me] [i]shall never hunger, and he that believeth in me shall never thirst" [/i](6:35).[/color][/font][font="Comic Sans MS"][color="#0000ff"][/color][/font]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 September 2009 - 01:20 AM' timestamp='1252214409' post='1961711']
[font="Comic Sans MS"][color="#0000ff"] By describing Himself as the "Bread of Life" in verse 35, the Catholic Church admits that up to verse 47, [i]"the teaching and the meaning, at least up to this point, is purely symbolic" [/i](Not By Bread Alone, by R. Sungenis, p. 172). Hence, the Catholic Church bids us to believe that Jesus was speaking [u]metaphorically[/u] when He says He was the bread that came down from heaven, but then spoke [u]literally[/u] when He told them to [i]eat it! [/i]This is pure nonsense. Jesus used this "oral oratory" in John 6 to set the table---but not for Him being the main course! It was to convey the idea of [i]believing[/i] in Him, period. [i]"He that cometh to me [/i][not he who eats me] [i]shall never hunger, and he that believeth in me shall never thirst" [/i](6:35).[/color][/font][font="Comic Sans MS"][color="#0000ff"][/color][/font]
[/quote]

Another well-known problem in anti-Catholic rhetoric is the tendency to quote any theologian who says anything that looks even the slightest bit off, without regard for the theologian's orthodoxy, status, etc. So the fact that Mr. Sungenis is a huge supporter of geocentrism (the dubious theory that the earth is the center of the universe) doesn't factor into the debate for an anti-Catholic, nor does the fact that the work cited is an opinion piece and not any sort of authoritative text.

Of course, there is also a misunderstanding over the technical theological definition of the word [i]symbol[/i] (my short tract on it is in the defense directory) and I suspect there may be a misunderstanding also over the senses of Scripture.

Please, continue.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='05 September 2009 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1252208971' post='1961639']
Please! He's *German*. (and Italian) [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]
You're so sloppy with your Catholic facts, Res. Need to work on that.



[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_above.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_pound.gif[/img]
[/quote]

WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MR. NIL OB? I said absolutely nothing about the nationality of the Pope, but merely said he was sitting on a throne in Italy. You are not even reading what I wrote, but your sinister eyes are merely looking for anything that you might try to criticize me for, and you've done a wonderful job of making a fool of yourself.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 September 2009 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1252215750' post='1961721']
WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MR. NIL OB? I said absolutely nothing about the nationality of the Pope, but merely said he was sitting on a throne in Italy. You are not even reading what I wrote, but your sinister eyes are merely looking for anything that you might try to criticize me for, and you've done a wonderful job of making a fool of yourself.
[/quote]


Stormstopper, this post was a humorous response to a previous post by Resurrexi. He did not gear it toward you.

You are becoming a little paranoid. We tend to be lighthearted here.

[Apotheoun]

Protestant scholar Adolph von Harnack's comments on the ancient understanding of the word symbol as applied to the Eucharist are helpful: "The symbol is the mystery and the mystery was not conceivable without a symbol,” for, “What we now-a-days understand by symbol is a thing which is not that which it represents; at that time [i.e., in the ancient Church] symbol denoted a thing which, in some kind of way, really is what it signifies." [Adolph von Harnack, [u]History of Dogma[/u], New York: Dover Publications, 1961, volume 2, page 144]

Edited September 6, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='06 September 2009 - 02:13 AM' timestamp='1252217588' post='1961732']
Protestant scholar Adolph von Harnack's comments on the ancient understanding of the word symbol as applied to the Eucharist are helpful: "The symbol is the mystery and the mystery was not conceivable without a symbol,” for, “What we now-a-days understand by symbol is a thing which is not that which it represents; at that time [i.e., in the ancient Church] symbol denoted a thing which, in some kind of way, really is what it signifies." [Adolph von Harnack, [u]History of Dogma[/u], New York: Dover Publications, 1961, volume 2, page 144]
[/quote]
Very helpful.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 September 2009 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1252215750' post='1961721']
WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MR. NIL OB? I said absolutely nothing about the nationality of the Pope, but merely said he was sitting on a throne in Italy. You are not even reading what I wrote, but your sinister eyes are merely looking for anything that you might try to criticize me for, and you've done a wonderful job of making a fool of yourself.
[/quote]
Here's your one chance to admit that you made a mistake with that one.

If I wanted to criticize you ad hominem I'd talk about your rabid anti-Catholicism and patronizing tone. If I wanted to criticize your arguments (which I've done briefly) then there are about a thousand ways I could do so, which is already being done by members far more learned than me.

My sinister eyes and I find this post hilarious.

[Selah]

Storm, perhaps you should have taken into account that the catholics here actually know what they are talking about

[StColette]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='05 September 2009 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1252207171' post='1961606']

I'll give you that one. That reflects less, however, on the fullness of Truth that the Church maintains and more on the sorry excuse for religious education that has been taking place in this country for the last 40 or so years.
[/quote]

I would read the transcript of that video or watch it before you're willing to give him that one. The question asked is pretty loaded.. "INTERVIEWER How is it that you hope to get into heaven?" For a Catholic it is more than just believing in Christ. Being a Christian they already believe in Christ, that's a given. But for Catholics and many other Protestants there is also the need to lead a life of holiness. That means following the Ten Commandments, praying, etc. Christ taught us specifically in the Gospel that there are two great Commandments, to love God before all others and to love your neighbor as yourself. If you are able to follow these two, then you are able to follow all Ten, because all Ten find themselves bound up in just these two. Many of the replies from those that were interviewed were by believing in God (kinda hard to believe in God and not believe in Jesus, if you're a Christian), follow the Commandments, participate in the Sacraments (not just Catholics believe in the necessity of the Sacraments for Salvation), by prayer, and by leading a holy life. These things aren't wrong answers, but they are used in order to say "see...Catholics don't think it's through Christ that you are saved". Of course we believe it's through Christ but Catholics (as well as many other non-Catholics) do not hold to the idea of Once Saved Always Saved, which is why many of those interviewed answered with things like "leading a good life" and "following the Ten Commandments". Now one could say that if you truly believed and followed Christ then all those other things (following the Commandments, prayer, etc.) are a given, because to believe and follow Christ is to live a life of holiness. Most Christians can easily believe in Christ, but living out a life that is Christ filled is often difficult.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Selah' date='06 September 2009 - 07:09 AM' timestamp='1252235377' post='1961748']
Storm, perhaps you should have taken into account that the catholics here actually know what they are talking about
[/quote]
I warned him before I invited him. Just for the record. I think that he's so convinced no Catholics know their faith that he didn't take me seriously.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StColette' date='06 September 2009 - 10:10 AM' timestamp='1252246255' post='1961761']
I would read the transcript of that video or watch it before you're willing to give him that one. The question asked is pretty loaded.. "INTERVIEWER How is it that you hope to get into heaven?" For a Catholic it is more than just believing in Christ. Being a Christian they already believe in Christ, that's a given. But for Catholics and many other Protestants there is also the need to lead a life of holiness. That means following the Ten Commandments, praying, etc. Christ taught us specifically in the Gospel that there are two great Commandments, to love God before all others and to love your neighbor as yourself. If you are able to follow these two, then you are able to follow all Ten, because all Ten find themselves bound up in just these two. Many of the replies from those that were interviewed were by believing in God (kinda hard to believe in God and not believe in Jesus, if you're a Christian), follow the Commandments, participate in the Sacraments (not just Catholics believe in the necessity of the Sacraments for Salvation), by prayer, and by leading a holy life. These things aren't wrong answers, but they are used in order to say "see...Catholics don't think it's through Christ that you are saved". Of course we believe it's through Christ but Catholics (as well as many other non-Catholics) do not hold to the idea of Once Saved Always Saved, which is why many of those interviewed answered with things like "leading a good life" and "following the Ten Commandments". Now one could say that if you truly believed and followed Christ then all those other things (following the Commandments, prayer, etc.) are a given, because to believe and follow Christ is to live a life of holiness. Most Christians can easily believe in Christ, but living out a life that is Christ filled is often difficult.
[/quote]

Hopping onto the whole "how are we saved" topic...Storm, if you want to discuss it, feel free to make another thread. Salvation theology was the topic of my thesis.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Raphael' date='06 September 2009 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1252249618' post='1961775']
I warned him before I invited him. Just for the record. I think that he's so convinced no Catholics know their faith that he didn't take me seriously.
[/quote]

Yeah, dUSt warned me too before I came here and I laughed it off. Now look at me.