Violence

[CatherineM]

Even when placed in a potentially unjust war scenario, those decisions are made way up the chain of command. For the soldier in the mud, they aren't really worried about global this or that, they are only interested in keeping themselves alive, and their friends next to them. If the war doesn't meet the just war requirements, the men and women fighting it fall underneath protecting their lives and defending those next to them.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='17 September 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1253211226' post='1968116']
Even when placed in a potentially unjust war scenario, those decisions are made way up the chain of command. For the soldier in the mud, they aren't really worried about global this or that, they are only interested in keeping themselves alive, and their friends next to them. If the war doesn't meet the just war requirements, the men and women fighting it fall underneath protecting their lives and defending those next to them.
[/quote]

Catherine,

If a soldier fighting a war knows, or has good reason to suspect that that the war he is prosecuting is, in fact, an unjust war, does he not sin by continuing to fight in that war? Were the individual German soldiers invading Poland, Belgium and France morally justified in killing those who were justly defending their homeland? If a man dies protecting his fellow unjust aggressor from those who are justly defending their homeland, is it really a virtuous act?

~Sternhauser

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 September 2009 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1253231037' post='1968275']
Catherine,

If a soldier fighting a war knows, or has good reason to suspect that that the war he is prosecuting is, in fact, an unjust war, does he not sin by continuing to fight in that war? Were the individual German soldiers invading Poland, Belgium and France morally justified in killing those who were justly defending their homeland? If a man dies protecting his fellow unjust aggressor from those who are justly defending their homeland, is it really a virtuous act?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
You are allowed to disobey an unlawful order in the US military. I imagine that you can as well in the Canadian military, but I haven't gotten that far in studying for my citizenship test. The basic private isn't normally a theologian. They can only deal with what is in front of them. They are individuals under someone else's authority. Now if the Pope comes out and says that a war is unjust, and Catholics can't participate, then I'd become a conscientious objector. In the real world, outside of a philosophy classroom, things often happen too fast and are too complex for that type of black and white definitive statement. Our Pope never made that type of statement against what the Nazi's were doing, and that was clearly unjust from their prospective. However, even if he had, a soldier in a trench, being attacked by the other justified side, can still defend his life, even if his side was unjust in starting the war.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='17 September 2009 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1253234122' post='1968304']
You are allowed to disobey an unlawful order in the US military.[/quote]

Only a handful of people in history have done so. This is proof either that the United State politicians are very effective inconvincing people that unjust wars are just, or that every war theUnited State has ever waged has been justified. The former is very likely. The latter is a falsehood.


[quote name ='CatherineM'] I imagine that you can as well in the Canadian military, but I haven't gotten that far in studying for my citizenship test. The basic private isn't normally a theologian. They can only deal with what is in front of them. They are individuals under someone else's authority.[/quote]


[quote]Now if the Pope comes out and says that a war is unjust, and Catholics can't participate, then I'd become a conscientious objector. In the real world, outside of a philosophy classroom, things often happen too fast and are too complex for that type of black and white definitive statement.[/quote]

The Pope said just that about the war in Iraq. He did not go so far as to say that "Catholics can't participate," but then, did he really have to, after saying, "This war does not fulfill the requirements of the just war doctrine?"

[quote] However, even if he had, a soldier in a trench, being attacked by the other justified side, can still defend his life, even if his side was unjust in starting the war.
[/quote]

I do not believe that to be correct at all. If you are participating in a robbery, you do not have the right to kill those who are justly defending their lives and property. You may avoid them, but you may not prosecute further unjust aggression upon them than you already have.

I think a Catholic should know better than to put himself in the service of politicians. I think a Catholic should know better than to believe that picking up a rifle at the behest of the State is prudent even 5 per cent of the time. I think a Catholic should be able to see right through the hubris of propaganda, and not believe the pleasant, honorable-sounding lie that whoever the politicians are sending you to kill, are being killed to ensure that "the country is safe." Even the Germans in WWII were convinced this was the case, as they marched into Poland, Belgium, France and Italy.

If and when a real threat to one's neighbors and land becomes imminent, it will be obvious to all that an unjust aggressor is upon them. As it is, there has not been a war in the past 180 years that has actually protected the United State from invasion and prolonged occupation. No country ever had the logistical capability to invade, let alone sustain an occupation. Not the Germans, not the Japanese, and not even the Russians. The Afghanis and the Vietnamese taught the world how they could defeat much more powerful aggressors. Each of them did so at least twice. One of them is going for a third time.

-Sternhauser

[Christopher Brandon]

If you join the Millitary then I am proud of you. There are many jobs within the millitary to help out our nation and others.

But killing is wrong. Period. If it is Gods will your enemy dies then it will come to pass without you. Who are we to decide wich one of us deserves to live more then the other? because you love the man behind makes it right to kill the stranger before you? Let the one worthy of judgment judge.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='17 September 2009 - 09:33 PM' timestamp='1253237584' post='1968341']
If you join the Millitary then I am proud of you. There are many jobs within the millitary to help out our nation and others.

But killing is wrong. Period. If it is Gods will your enemy dies then it will come to pass without you. Who are we to decide wich one of us deserves to live more then the other? because you love the man behind makes it right to kill the stranger before you? Let the one worthy of judgment judge.
[/quote]

Christopher Brandon,

Your points seem contradictory. First, you are happy that someone would join a military, because "there are many jobs within the military to help our nation and others." Then, you say, "Killing is wrong. Period." What is the military but a group of people who either kill other people, or facilitate the killing of others in either logistical or moral support roles? Are you saying it is moral to be a member of an organization, the intrinsic nature of which is to kill or facilitate killing?

I do not believe that killing is intrinsically wrong. It is a natural evil, but morally neutral. Deliberately killing innocents is always wrong. And militaries seem to be monuments to this kind of killing. Dresden, London, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. All these cities were deliberately targeted by men in the military to intentionally slaughter civilians as an avowed means of "helping people." Their slaughter was proximately and materially assisted by a chain of other men in the same militaries.

In the case of self-defense against an unjust aggressor, you are making the choice to defend yourself. Whether he dies or lives in the act of your self-defense is not imputed to your conscience. The aggressor is making the choice to forfeit his life in the course of his aggressive act. He decides whose life is more important. I do not even believe, nor is a Catholic required to believe, that intending to kill an unjust aggressor is wrong. The executioner of the State, for example. How can the individuals in society bestow upon him a right that they themselves do not have? Or would anyone propose that God himself gives the special power over life or death to this individual?

-Sternhauser

[CatherineM]

My father was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross in WWII for sinking a German U-boat. He said it had about 50 men on board. It was firing on a troop transport that had troops from the British 18th Division on it. They dropped charges that forced the sub to surface. They were given the opportunity to surrender, but instead manned their surface guns. He said he could see the faces of the men he killed as the sub went down. That transport had several thousand men on board.

So you don't think that any of the wars Americans have fought in the last 180 years have been just? You could make the argument that the Revolutionary War was basically about money, so was the Civil War in a way. An argument could be made that no war is really necessary or just. I'm not capable of allowing myself to believe that the blood my ancestors spilled was in vain, unjust, or criminal.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 September 2009 - 07:43 PM' timestamp='1253231037' post='1968275']
Catherine,

If a soldier fighting a war knows, or has good reason to suspect that that the war he is prosecuting is, in fact, an unjust war, does he not sin by continuing to fight in that war? Were the individual German soldiers invading Poland, Belgium and France morally justified in killing those who were justly defending their homeland? If a man dies protecting his fellow unjust aggressor from those who are justly defending their homeland, is it really a virtuous act?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
Culpability requires more than simply knowledge.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='17 September 2009 - 09:33 PM' timestamp='1253237584' post='1968341']
If you join the Millitary then I am proud of you. There are many jobs within the millitary to help out our nation and others.

But killing is wrong. Period. If it is Gods will your enemy dies then it will come to pass without you. Who are we to decide wich one of us deserves to live more then the other? because you love the man behind makes it right to kill the stranger before you? Let the one worthy of judgment judge.
[/quote]
Pacifism takes all the fun out of being a pagan.

[Christopher Brandon]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 September 2009 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1253238830' post='1968355']
Christopher Brandon,

Your points seem contradictory. First, you are happy that someone would join a military, because "there are many jobs within the military to help our nation and others." Then, you say, "Killing is wrong. Period." What is the military but a group of people who either kill other people, or facilitate the killing of others in either logistical or moral support roles? Are you saying it is moral to be a member of an organization, the intrinsic nature of which is to kill or facilitate killing?

I do not believe that killing is intrinsically wrong. It is a natural evil, but morally neutral. Deliberately killing innocents is always wrong. And militaries seem to be monuments to this kind of killing. Dresden, London, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. All these cities were deliberately targeted by men in the military to intentionally slaughter civilians as an avowed means of "helping people." Their slaughter was proximately and materially assisted by a chain of other men in the same militaries.

In the case of self-defense against an unjust aggressor, you are making the choice to defend yourself. Whether he dies or lives in the act of your self-defense is not imputed to your conscience. The aggressor is making the choice to forfeit his life in the course of his aggressive act. He decides whose life is more important. I do not even believe, nor is a Catholic required to believe, that intending to kill an unjust aggressor is wrong. The executioner of the State, for example. How can the individuals in society bestow upon him a right that they themselves do not have? Or would anyone propose that God himself gives the special power over life or death to this individual?

-Sternhauser
[/quote]

I have not contradicted myself. You can serve without killing. You can hide behind your orders but when you kill you've made that choice, not your superiors. Just remember that the chain of command in the millitary is made up of men, and you aleady had orders from something greater. I am not afraid to die, because dying will happen sooner or later. It is judgement after death I'm afraid of. So who do you fear most, Men or God?

[Secuutus]

I am in the military right now and I have been told that we might be shipped out to Afganistan in december, I was never for the war but I believed whole heartedly in serving my country. Every male on my father's side of my family has served, my dad, 2 uncles, 1 aunt, my grandfather in vietnam, all 5 of my male cousins. We knew what we were signing up for and we know what we might have to do. 2 of my oldest cousins were in operation feluja, and saw more action than anyone of us, and it has effected them tremendously. They are absolutely heart broken for what they had to do. They go to church everyday and go to confession once a week, and ask for forgiveness for what they did. They still don't feel forgiven, we have no idea what they go through. I don't think what they go through is a murderer's conscience. do you?
Is it wrong to want to serve our country and have to be sent over there because of 1 man? we didn't cause this war. We simply wanted to serve our country. We are not just defending Americas honor but we are simply denfending ourselves, because we have to. Are we to just simply lay our weapons down and be killed? would you do that?
I struggle everyday knowing that I have to kill someone, if I was ordered to go to afganistan. I will not dis-obey an order nor will I leave my country and desert it because a Man decided to go to war for his personal, unjust, ego. Im no quiter, and neaither are the millions of military service members, because thats one of the things seperates us from other regular people.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='17 September 2009 - 11:03 PM' timestamp='1253243017' post='1968407']
I have not contradicted myself. You can serve without killing. You can hide behind your orders but when you kill you've made that choice, not your superiors. Just remember that the chain of command in the millitary is made up of men, and you aleady had orders from something greater. I am not afraid to die, because dying will happen sooner or later. It is judgement after death I'm afraid of. So who do you fear most, Men or God?
[/quote]
So use of lethal force is never justifiable and always sinful? Does that apply to all violence?

[Christopher Brandon]

I know what your thinking. David slew goliath, but my profile explains my opinions.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='17 September 2009 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1253245063' post='1968423']
I know what your thinking. David slew goliath, but my profile explains my opinions.
[/quote]
No, you don't know what I'm thinking, apparently. I'm not going to read your profile to get your opinion. Step up and argue if you're coming in the debate board with your half-baked pacifism, about which you've obviously never thought seriously.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='17 September 2009 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1253240868' post='1968380']

So you don't think that any of the wars Americans have fought in the last 180 years have been just?[/quote]

I did not say that all of the wars Americans have fought in the last180 years have been unjust. I said they were not fought to preventinvasion or occupation of the United State. It is legitimate to say "some of them fought to protect the freedom of people from other countries." It would be incorrect to say that they were "protecting your rights" or "protecting this country."


[quote]You could make the argument that the Revolutionary War was basically about money, so was the Civil War in a way. An argument could be made that no war is really necessary or just. I'm not capable of allowing myself to believe that the blood my ancestors spilled was in vain, unjust, or criminal.
[/quote]

This is why people continue to kill other people over material gain, at the behest of politicians. The motives of the individuals may be pure, but what they're actually accomplishing seldom changes. More people ought to realize that it is very rare that one kills to or dies while actually protecting innocent individuals. One shouldn't pick up a rifle to kill someone until an enemy actually poses an active threat.

War is nothing but the macrocosm of the principles of self-defense. It is merely men working together in concert to stop men who are aggressing in concert.

But human beings love drama. They love the sound of sabers rattling. They love the sound of war drums. They love to feel like they're a part of something bigger, but they can't channel desire into the Church Militant, so they settle for being simply militant. There's nothing I can say to convince anyone about it. I see nothing honorable in killing on behalf of politicians. No matter how much you believe you're "protecting Americans." If you need to defend other people, it should be done on your own dime. A standing army will always be abused by the politicians who pay them with other people's money. It's not their life, and it's not their money. They don't care how they use them. And the real tragedy is that they go willingly to their deaths, their heads and hearts full of the notion that they're protecting their fellow man. And it just isn't so.

So, you'll have to excuse me if I cannot bring myself to believe that even 5% of the people who killed other people in the past 10,000 years did so justly. If I refuse to honor the memory of someone for the mere fact that they took up arms and served the State, even while they really believed they were "protecting their fellow man." That's not patriotism. That's nationalism.

Please look up a speech by United State Marine Corps General Smedley Butler. He received the Medal of Honor. Twice. He will tell you what he fought for. He will tell you what he killed for. He will tell you precisely whom he protected. The speech is called, "War Is A Racket."

~Sternhauser

[Winchester]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='18 September 2009 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1253246937' post='1968440']
So, you'll have to excuse me if I cannot bring myself to believe that even 5% of the people who killed other people in the past 10,000 years did so justly. If I refuse to honor the memory of someone for the mere fact that they took up arms and served the State, even while they really believed they were "protecting their fellow man." That's not patriotism. That's nationalism.
[/quote]
And I'm sure you'll excuse me them if they really don't give poo what you think.

You had me until you made it personal with each soldier. On behalf of them for your arrogant judgment, [mod]Just saving you guys the trouble--Winnie[/mod]

[Secuutus]

Socrates even said that "patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does" Like I said I don't agree with the war, but I love my country enough to serve it.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Winchester' date='18 September 2009 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1253247783' post='1968448']
And I'm sure you'll excuse me them if they really don't give poo what you think.

You had me until you made it personal with each soldier. On behalf of them for your arrogant judgment, [mod]Just saving you guys the trouble--Winnie[/mod]
[/quote]

Winchester,

That's fine. I won't force you or them to accept my worldview. I've never threatened them for speaking their mind, or for speaking out against my worldview. But many have threatened me with violence for speaking out against their worldview. They think that they can defend "honor" with their fists. They think that they can change minds and ideas with physical violence. They're wrong. From a personal point of view, it doesn't bother me that they don't care what I think. From a Catholic point of view, it really bothers me that they don't take a sober look at the things I try to tell them.

The following statement is one that sounds nearly [i]identical[/i] to what some of my Catholic military acquaintances have said to me. "We weren't in [name of overseas area of operations] to kill human beings, really. We were there to kill an ideology that is carried by - Idon't know - pawns, blobs, pieces of flesh. I was there to destroyan intangible idea. To destroy [ideology]. Killing those men in [name of overseas area of operations] didn't haunt me." The man speaking those words? Lieutenant William Calley. I'm sure you know who he was. For the rest of you, the place was My Lai village, Viet Nam. The ideology was Communism. William Calley led a massacre of between 100 and 500 human beings. Calley himself shot a toddler who was running away. I invite everyone to read about it.
[url="http://tinyurl.com/nzewwo"]http://tinyurl.com/nzewwo[/url]

Do I think that Calley didn't have the best of intentions when going over to Viet Nam? He doubtless did. So do most people who go off to war. Nobody grows up pretending to be a soldier who machineguns innocents and watches their pretend lifeless bodies pitch forward into a pretend mass grave. Nevertheless, these young men put themselves in horrible situations, unnecessarily, and imprudently. That is where the trouble lies. It is not in their good intentions. It is in their lack of prudence and sobriety in making their life-altering decisions.

One of my Tridentine-rite loving Catholic acquaintances gleefully told me how he looked forward to "separating body-soul composites," and "killing hadjis." His mindset is shared by several other of my Catholic acquaintances. These are supposed Catholics. If this is what Tridentine Catholics, steeped in the teachings of the Church, are eagerly looking forward to, what about the [i]average[/i] soldier? What is [i]he[/i] looking forward to?

No, it does not bother me what they think, on a personal level. I do worry about what their decision to join the military will do to them, their spouses, their children. And I mourn for the broken souls and broken bodies that they will leave behind when they go 5,000 miles away to kill someone, while claiming "they were just about to take our freedoms."

I will never sing the praises of anyone whose training includes wilful participation in singing along to cadences such as "Napalm Sticks To Kids" and songs about "throwing candy to the children, waiting until they gather round, then blowing those little [unpleasant word] down." I sang them myself, in an uglier, un-Catholic age. The intent is to desensitize you to killing everyone and everything. It's a bad goal. And it doesn't work.


-Sternhauser

Edited September 18, 2009 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Secuutus' date='18 September 2009 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1253249456' post='1968468']
Socrates even said that "patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does" Like I said I don't agree with the war, but I love my country enough to serve it.
[/quote]

What is your country, Secuutus? Is it the State and its politicians? Or is it your neighbors, their freedom, their customs and the land on which you all live? I am certain you would say "the latter."

I guarantee you, that even if their lives and land were threatened by someone living 4,000 miles away, there is nothing that you going over there and killing people would do to prevent it. Afghanistan and Iraq pose absolutely no threat of invasion and occupation. They never did. There is nothing anyone can do to prevent any number of determined individuals from coming over here across any border, bringing whatever they want, and making September 11th look like a teddy bear's picnic. Tons, literally tons of cocaine, marijuana and heroin cross the borders every year. What is stopping some of those containers from being filled with jihadists and a few kilos of semtex? Absolutely nothing. And that includes your potential actions and killing overseas.

With all respect and sincerity, I tell you: you won't be accomplishing anything good over there. You will be doing nothing but stirring up more anger against the United State and the people who live under it.

~Sternhauser

[Secuutus]

will I go to hell if I am sent over seas and I killed someone who was trying to kill me?

1 of my cousins recieved the purple heart, long with 2 other Marines, for saving 2 of his fellow platoon men while they were pinned down in a closed off ally,and kiled 4. He said he can see there faces also, and he knew exactly what he was doing. Will he go to hell? Is he to be judged because he did what he had to for survival? Is he not a patriot for saving those men, fellow americans? He is Catholic, we all are. We will never use force against someone who doesn't deserve it, nor will we engage in force unless our lives depended on it.