New Carmelite Monastery In Elysburg, Pa

[InHisLove726]

I am posting this for a friend who attended the open house this weekend at the Carmel in Elysburg, PA. She shared with me some wonderful articles and I thought I'd post them here for everyone to see. As some of you know, the Carmel in Elysburg was refounded from the Valparaiso, NE Carmel which was over capacity (they had 33 when St. Teresa desired that her Carmels have only 21 members). The news articles tell about the monastery itself, which is very important for someone who wants to discern there. They also have some pictures.

http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/pa/2009/33/articles/weekend_events_open_elysburg_monastery_area_clergy.html

http://www.republicanherald.com/news/new_set_of_nuns_at_home_in_elysburg_monastery
(click image gallery on this article to see more pictures; its also important to note that the pictures of the nuns are of the older nuns of Elysburg; the current ones wear the full habit and veil)

http://www.newsitem.com/news/elysburg_carmelite_nuns_enclosed_by_harrisburg_bishop_chapel_and_monastery_blessed
(see image gallery here, too, for more pictures; also my friend noted a mistake on this article--the CFRs were not in attendance, however, the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate were)

http://www.hbgdiocese.org/News/Detail.aspx?PageID=542ba2be-b1d4-4bce-8da6-e3ad7c86fd8b&NID=dd120f90-24eb-44b3-89f9-da847455caaa

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/09/solemn-mass-and-enclosure-at-elysburg.html

Enjoy!

[TotusTuusMaria]

thanks for posting these.

[InHisLove726]

You're welcome.

[Saint Therese]

thanks for posting these links. Its great to see that the trend continues: communities that are returning to traditional observances are having increased vocations.

[InHisLove726]

It's not problem. Reading them was very edifying for me since I am very interested in the Carmelite life. I think it would be very intriguing for there to be a study between all the Carmels to see what practices all of them have, and what their differences are.


edit for: typo

Edited September 16, 2009 by InHisLove726

[Thomist-in-Training]

Soooo interesting! Thanks!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/3885366205/in/set-72157622233735714/

It looks like there are windows that look into the choir from the upstairs hallways. Does anyone know why that would be?

So, do Carmelites [strict varieties anyways] just never use kneelers because they are that awesome? Or do they put them away for the photo? http://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/3886157574/in/set-72157622233735714/

Someone mentioned "the reforms of Mother Maravillas. In their constitution, things such as habit and grilles and times of strict fast and silence are specified." Who was she?

[quote]One noteable difference is that the French School did NOT have a tradition of "seeing Mass" - rather they heard it on the other side of the wall of the altar, where their choir stalls were. [/quote] From the comments at NLM. That was a bit what it was like at my monastery--a large stone high altar with an organ behind it and the nuns hidden behind that in choir stalls--but when they've renovated it I don't know what it will be like. In a way though it's encouraging to know that there were some nuns at some time who just didn't [i]see [/i]Holy Mass.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='17 September 2009 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1253160451' post='1967941']
Soooo interesting! Thanks!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/3885366205/in/set-72157622233735714/

It looks like there are windows that look into the choir from the upstairs hallways. Does anyone know why that would be?

So, do Carmelites [strict varieties anyways] just never use kneelers because they are that awesome? Or do they put them away for the photo? http://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/3886157574/in/set-72157622233735714/

Someone mentioned "the reforms of Mother Maravillas. In their constitution, things such as habit and grilles and times of strict fast and silence are specified." Who was she?

From the comments at NLM. That was a bit what it was like at my monastery--a large stone high altar with an organ behind it and the nuns hidden behind that in choir stalls--but when they've renovated it I don't know what it will be like. In a way though it's encouraging to know that there were some nuns at some time who just didn't [i]see [/i]Holy Mass.
[/quote]


I think the windows are in the hallway where the nuns' cells are?

You know Carmelite nuns are awesome! I don't believe they use kneelers.

Mother Maravillas of Jesus' story can be found [url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20030504_maravillas_en.html"]here[/url].

[Orans]

[quote][url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/3885366205/in/set-72157622233735714/"]http://www.flickr.co...57622233735714/[/url]

It looks like there are windows that look into the choir from the upstairs hallways. Does anyone know why that would be? [/quote]

I'm guessing that they might be to a tribune for sick Sisters, or Sisters in retreat or the like. It would be a way of staying in choir without being visible.


[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='17 September 2009 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1253160451' post='1967941']
Someone mentioned "the reforms of Mother Maravillas. In their constitution, things such as habit and grilles and times of strict fast and silence are specified." Who was she? [/quote]

Saint Maravillas of Jesus, OCD -(1891-1974)- was a Spanish Carmelite who founded several OCD monasteries in Spain during the XX century, and reformed others. Those monasteries were very strict as in the original Rule of St. Teresa of Avila, even down to small traditions, and without any mitigations.

These Carmel monasteries of St. Madre Maravillas where the ones who worked on and requested to the Holy See the 1990 Constitutions' approval after the Vat II.

Madre Maravillas was canonized by JPII in Madrid, Spain in May 4, 2003.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv4mi73FykQ"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Cv4mi73FykQ[/url]

You can see her name among the Carmelite saints in this calendar, on December 11:
[url="http://www.meditationsfromcarmel.com/carmelite_calendar.html"]http://www.meditatio...e_calendar.html[/url]


More information: [url="http://www.lasvegasmariancenter.com/madre.htm"]http://www.lasvegasm...r.com/madre.htm[/url]

This is a good page in Spanish which you can read with Google translator:
[url="http://carmelitasdescalzas1990.blogspot.com/2008/12/blog-post.html"]http://carmelitasdes.../blog-post.html[/url]

Edited September 17, 2009 by Orans

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Orans' date='17 September 2009 - 02:17 AM' timestamp='1253164657' post='1967971']
I'm guessing that they might be to a tribune for sick Sisters, or Sisters in retreat or the like. It would be a way of staying in choir without being visible.
[/quote]

Yeah. Above that choir where the back windows are is the novitiate. And those two windows on either side are a special place where the sisters can retreat too... little mini-hermitage cells. They can open those two windows at the top and pray/look down into the choir where the sisters actually have a dove tabernacle hanging down. You can something similar to it below:

[img]http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/dove.jpg[/img]

Jesus is reserved there, and the sisters can make a little retreat in those above rooms, and then also, like said, the middle window is actually at the end of that upper hallway and is a place for the sick sisters to retreat to.

Actually, you can see the dove/tabernacle (I forget the correct term for it) in the picture posted already in this thread:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/3885391827/

Edited September 17, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[TeresaBenedicta]

MY FRIEND IS ONE OF THEM NUNS!!!!

Seriously. ;-)

She entered the Carmel in NE a few years ago. And we found out through letters circulated that she would be part of setting up the new monastery. Originally both she and I were from the West coast. Now both she and I are pretty much in the same state! (I'm about ten minutes from PA).

Beautiful!

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote]From the comments at NLM. That was a bit what it was like at my monastery--a large stone high altar with an organ behind it and the nuns hidden behind that in choir stalls--but when they've renovated it I don't know what it will be like. In a way though it's encouraging to know that there were some nuns at some time who just didn't [i]see [/i]Holy Mass.
[/quote]

These nuns actually do see the Mass. They have a "Mass choir" that is to the right of the extern altar that we see in all of the pictures of the Mass. Then they have the choir in the back, that is seen in these photos, where they pray the Liturgy of the Hours, rosary, and other community prayers.

I heard too though that up until Vatican II Discalced Carmelite nuns did not see the Mass... which, in a way, I think is kind of neat too.

...however with all that iron and the number of sisters in front of you (if you are a professed sister) and the angle you are actually viewing the Mass at... and then with the priests and altar boys sitting in front of the grill I don't imagine they actually are able to "see" the Mass very well now either.

Edited September 17, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='InHisLove726' date='17 September 2009 - 01:38 AM' timestamp='1253162314' post='1967959']
I think the windows are in the hallway where the nuns' cells are?
[/quote]

Almost. Actually down that hallway is a storage room, the classroom in the novitiate, a novitiate wash-room, and those two hermitage cells that have nothing in them. Those two are very very small cells/hermitage spaces. The next hallway begins the actual cells where the sisters sleep, pray, etc.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='InHisLove726' date='17 September 2009 - 01:38 AM' timestamp='1253162314' post='1967959']
I don't believe they use kneelers.

[/quote]

Yeah, they don't

and yeah... that is pretty awesome.

[Thomist-in-Training]

Wow, thanks, everyone!

OK, the explanations about the upper hallway were very interesting. Orans, I don't know what a tribune is though. I looked on Google and found a book about Poor Clare architecture, actually, which mentions not being able to see the altar at Mass as we were discussing.

[size="1"]http://books.google.com/books?id=A7Cv3YAuLK8C&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=tribune+monastic&source=bl&ots=sX3zy4xswP&sig=N8z82ccnY5CFnW1Rb0vghFj4i68&hl=en&ei=A1KySqO9H47-MNuSvbsL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=tribune%20monastic&f=false[/size]

But it didn't exactly say [i]what [/i]it is, so would you explain or link to a photo? Thanks!

.....................................................................
From the Vatican article on Mother Maravillas:

[quote]This was the first of the series of [i]Teresian Carmelite Monasteries [/i]that she would establish, according to the Rule and Constitutions of the Discalced Carmelites. María was not being called to found a new order or to "branch off" from the Discalced Carmelites - she herself was very careful in pointing this out; she only sought to live deeply and to transmit the spirit and ideals of St Teresa of Jesus and St John of the Cross. [/quote]

I've heard the phrase "Teresian Carmelites" before. But I always thought it meant the same as "Discalced" since the Discalced Carmelite are sort of the 'Reform of St. Teresa.' Does "Teresian" sometimes imply then specifically "Discalced Carmelite monasteries in the more primitive tradition of the Discalced, as restored by Mother Maravillas"?

[Saint Therese]

I love to see the traditional Carmelite habit, which is so beautiful.

[Orans]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='17 September 2009 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1253200631' post='1968046'] OK, the explanations about the upper hallway were very interesting. Orans, I don't know what a tribune is though. I looked on Google and found a book about Poor Clare architecture, actually, which mentions not being able to see the altar at Mass as we were discussing.

[size="1"][url="http://books.google.com/books?id=A7Cv3YAuLK8C&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=tribune+monastic&source=bl&ots=sX3zy4xswP&sig=N8z82ccnY5CFnW1Rb0vghFj4i68&hl=en&ei=A1KySqO9H47-MNuSvbsL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=tribune%20monastic&f=false"]http://books.google....onastic&f=false[/url][/size]

But it didn't exactly say [i]what [/i]it is, so would you explain or link to a photo? Thanks! [/quote]

A tribune is a kind of a balcony more or less enclosed -from totally open to walled up except for a (usually) grilled window of varied size. Unlike the balcony, a tribune doesn't necessarily invade the space it looks over.

This is very common in European church architecture over the centuries, especially in monastery churches where it serves a need in communites, that is to have more than one place of access to Mass, or communal prayer, or the Tabernacle.

Because churches have almost always higher ceilings than the adjacent spaces (which often are just ordinary living quarters), it is very easy to set a tribune over a church, chapel, choir, etc. just by not closing up a wall, or by opening a window, or even removing a whole wall over a part ot the church space.

I think we all are familiar with a tribune in the back of the church, sometimes called upper choir, often over the entrance door area.

I've seen a tribune in monasteries overlooking the main altar from the upper side of the sanctuary, over the main altar and the tabernacle, enclosed with a thick grill that continues the wall. A person can be in the presence of the Eucharist, or following Mass there without being spotted by anybody. Many monasteries have this.

Sorry I haven't found the images I'm talking about, but the link you found has a good description.
I'm posting some pictures that are not the monastic variation directly over the sanctuary but hope will give you an idea:

Enclosed tribune with grill: [url="http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5937/dsc02283hu0.jpg"]http://img227.images...dsc02283hu0.jpg[/url]

Big open tribunes/balconies over both sides of the nave of this church:
[url="http://archone.tamu.edu/college/news/newsletters/spring2008/stories/texasChurches/serbin-interior.jpg"]http://archone.tamu....in-interior.jpg[/url]

[Orans]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='17 September 2009 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1253200631' post='1968046']
From the Vatican article on Mother Maravillas:

I've heard the phrase "Teresian Carmelites" before. But I always thought it meant the same as "Discalced" since the Discalced Carmelite are sort of the 'Reform of St. Teresa.' Does "Teresian" sometimes imply then specifically "Discalced Carmelite monasteries in the more primitive tradition of the Discalced, as restored by Mother Maravillas"?
[/quote]

I too believe that Teresian Carmelites and Discalzed Carmelites are the same. This Carmelites also explain it thus: [url="http://carmelholyland.org/english/inhfamille.htm"]http://carmelholylan.../inhfamille.htm[/url]

I don't think there is another meaning or distinction ... but maybe some Phatmas Carmelite experts will have a different say [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/graduate.gif[/img] ??

[Indwelling Trinity]

Teresian Carmelite means all Carmelites of the reform of Saint Teresa. As for no kneelers, that is common for Teresian Carmels In none of the momastaries I belonged to did we have kneelers. However in Port Tobacco in the storage bottom of the choir bench was kept a little taize type stool that you could kneel and sit back a little while praying; kind of a semi kneeling position. Whereas in the 199O's we knelt during the whole mass except for the Gospel also during the hours of prayer we either knelt the entire hour or sat but once having decided which position to take we were to stay like that the entire hour so as not to distract others with much moving. But that was in My Particular Carmel.

The 1991's were more flexible as prayer could also be made in the cell or hermitage. O. Carm nuns use full chior stalls.And yes the grille on the second floor was usually for those in the infirmary to attend mass.

Indwelling Trinity

[Indwelling Trinity]

Just as an aside, The Missionaries of Charity also do not use any kneelers and either kneel or sit on the floor at all functions in chapel.

Actually in all my years in religious life I have never used a kneeler or choir stall and to be truthful using kneelers in church are a real penance for me as they often are too short and dig into the joint of your knees. Laughing... but that is just me

Indwelling Trinity

Edited September 18, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[Nunsense]

At Kirk Edge, during meditation the nuns knelt for only the first 5-10 minutes of prayer, then Mother would give "the knock" and sisters could either use a prayer stool (two kinds - either the taize type meditation stool close to the ground or the Carmelite stool with the hole/handle in the middle) or if they couldn't use either of these for physical reasons, they could sit in the choir stall or on a chair (the very elderly used a chair with a chair pad). Towards the end of prayer, Mother would knock again, and then we would return to kneeling for the last 5-10 minutes. The infirm could stand whenever we knelt.

During Mass, once again, we could use either type of stool or the choir stall if necessary, but we were up and down so much with the standing, sitting, kneeling, of the Mass, that although I liked to use the taize stool, once I had to use the choir stall because my knees were actually getting sore. The kneeling isn't half as hard as the getting up and down again over and over again. I love kneeling, and in Singapore, the Adoration chapels have just a big empty room with a bench along the back wall, and some cushions piled in a corner for those who need them. I find that after a while, callouses form on the knees that actually provide padding, so I don't mind kneeling for long periods of time. I love the taize stool for meditation though - it is less distracting when the body is not protesting.

At Edmonton, they had no stools of any kind, and we HAD to use the choir stalls. I did not like this because I found the seats hard for my bony backside, plus it seemed to put a strain on my back unless I sat very far forward on the stall, almost like a stool. At Wolverhampton, we could use whatever was most comfortable and least distracting. In the old days in England anyway, the Carmelites used to sit on their habits, which were much thicker and longer then, and they would roll them into a sort of little cushion underneath them. They also use a sort of hard rectangular cushion and sit sort of sidesaddle on it, but I found this gave me a twisted back which was not conducive to spending a long time in prayer.

As for seeing the Mass in Carmel, at both Edmonton and Wolverhampton, the grilles were arranged in such a way that we could see, the altar, the Tabernacle and the priest - wonderful! At Kirk Edge (Sheffield), my position in choir was so far to the side that my vision was very limited. The chapel was arranged with the Tabernacle against the far wall, so I couldn't see that. During the week, the priest would stand at the side of the altar, facing us in the choir, so I could see him them, but not when he went to his podium to read the gospel. On Sundays, he stood at the back of the altar facing the congregation, so I could only see his hands occasionally, and couldn't see him during the gospel or homily. Basically I couldn't see the Mass, and I could barely hear it, although I could see the congregation come up to receive communion. I offered it all up to Jesus because it hurt so much. Then one day, Mother told me to switch from the Sub-Prioress' side of the choir to hers, and from that side I could see everything except the congregation, which was fine for me! I was very happy then because I could see the Tabernacle with the Blessed Sacrament and all of the Mass, especially the consecration.

All the Carmels seem to have their own way of doing things, even though they are similar in many ways. I think the foundress makes a big difference. Many of the Carmels in England were founded by Mother Mary of Jesus from France, and they all seem to have a similar flavor, but then there were also a lot founded from Belgium as well, and they are probably more like each other in customs.