The Inevitability...

[Lounge Daddy]

[font="Courier"]Is it possible that Catholicism is inevitable in an honest quest for truth?[/font]

Edited April 4, 2004 by Lounge Daddy

[Dave]

I'd have to answer that in the affirmative.

[Brother Adam]

Not if one is not exploring Catholicism, and not if God's will is not that a person should be a member of Catholicism. Look at Pharoah.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 4 2004, 11:29 AM'] Not if one is not exploring Catholicism, and not if God's will is not that a person should be a member of Catholicism. Look at Pharoah. [/quote]
[font="Courier"]what about Pharoah?[/font]

[Bruce S]

Hmm, not to mention a little factiod...nah, err... OK, here goes.

"IF" you guys really are the ONE TRUE CHURCH and have had 2,000 years to make your case, how come everyone doesn't agree? At one point in time most were "sort of" united, but the longer the Catholic Church exists, the more people "spin out of" her, and leave?

So, rather than being the INEVITABLE choice, the arrogant title of this thread, it seems more and more, to the be biological choice, where people are born physically INTO it, and move out later in life by choice. I honestly wonder how many convert into the Catholic Church in American, excluding those who are doing so because they are getting married to a Catholic Church faithful and want to be the same religion?

Does anyone know of statistical sources online that tracks these sort of numbers for the various denominations?

[Livin_the_MASS]

Give it up Bruce you won't prove the Catholic Church wrong!

[MagiDragon]

[quote]what about Pharoah? [/quote]

I think he's referring to the line that says God hardened Pharoah's heart. This, however is a slight inaccuracy to think that God hardened his heart w/out Pharoah's will:
1. Pharoah had free will just like everyone else.
2. The Bible also said that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

I think we are supposed to believe that because Pharoah willed his heart to be hard, God made it hard.

Edited April 4, 2004 by MagiDragon

[Bruce S]

Not trying to, I PERSONALLY don't think the Catholic Church is "wrong" never did, don't now either, sorry .. .that strawman arguement isn't going to fly.

Now, I don't think the Catholic Church is "right" either.

Balanced nuanced presentations are not the favored form of debate here, I know that, this is the "dogmatics are us" board, and that is fine too, just don't try to get me to AGREE that you are the true chuch, for I don't believe ANY denomination is the true church, they are all flawed, even yours, sorry. Mine too, I know that.

Anyway, this is a fascinating read I just found written by a CATHOLIC on the very topic we have in play here:

[quote]Why Catholics Leave

Most are seeking a fuller experience of Christ.

By Ralph Martin



Through my involvement in the Catholic charismatic renewal, I have frequent contact with many Protestant charismatic churches and movements. I am struck by the significant numbers of ex­Catholics I have encountered in Assembly of God churches, the Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International, independent Christian centers, or Hispanic Protestant churches in the Southwest.

As a lifelong and convinced Catholic, I feel disappointment when I hear of Catholics leaving our church. When I have an opportunity, I explain to them why they should stay. I believe, as the church teaches, that the one church founded by Christ subsists in the Catholic Church: "This is the sole church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (John 21:17), commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it (see Matt. 28:18), and which he raised up for all ages as 'the pillar and mainstay of the truth' (1 Tim. 3:15). This church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him" (Lumen Gentium 8).

I believe also, as the church teaches, that Catholics who, believing the true church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church and who nevertheless leave it, place their salvation in jeopardy: "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it" (Lumen Gentium 14).
But while I am troubled by Catholics leaving the Catholic Church, I am also troubled by some of the responses to this that I frequently hear.

One common response is to blame Protestants for evangelizing Catholics. Another response is to bemoan the loss of the riches of the Catholic tradition that these ex­Catholics experience by embracing what Catholics consider to be an inferior theology and ecclesiology. [/quote]

[url="http://world.std.com/~pastoral/whyleave.htm"]http://world.std.com/~pastoral/whyleave.htm[/url]

Edited April 4, 2004 by Bruce S

[Bruce S]

[quote]
While "underhanded" means of evangelizing are not unknown, most of these ex­Catholics were not lured by such means. In most cases, they met coworkers, friends, home visitors, neighbors, or a preacher at a church service or revival who offered them a fuller experience of Christ and a more personal connection in their lives with him than they were experiencing in the Catholic Church. Many talk as if they've encountered the Lord himself for the first time.

[/quote]

This is what happened with me, and I might remind you again, that my local Assembly of God chuch is 60% ex-Catholics. So, apparently, my experience isn't unique.

I also, want to remind you, that I DO attend morning Mass and have done so for the past five weeks during Lent, so my experience is dual, I go both now, so my perspective is fresh, and current, and not biased by bitterness.

[quote]While Catholic tradition is indeed rich, the fact is that many Catholics' normal experience of their church is as a rather weak and impersonal institution rather than as a place where they can encounter life with the risen Lord, life in the Holy Spirit, the love of the brothers, and a sense of mission. Even more disturbing is the fact that [b]so many Catholics have found the Catholic institutions they have contact with-whether it be a parish or a Catholic school or university-to be places where faith and morality are weakened rather than strengthened. The crisis of truth in the Catholic Church and the subsequent undermining of faith, morality, and mission[/b] that I wrote about in 1982 in my book, A Crisis of Truth, are still with us in devastating ways. [/quote]

AMEN.

Edited April 4, 2004 by Bruce S

[PedroX]

At the Easter Vigil (next Sat) the Catholic Church in North America will recieve over 150,000 adult converts into the Church.


peace...

[MagiDragon]

[quote]"IF" you guys really are the ONE TRUE CHURCH and have had 2,000 years to make your case, how come everyone doesn't agree? [/quote]

The Bible tells us that we will always have dissent. Thus, this line of thinking proves nothing.

[quote]At one point in time most were "sort of" united, but the longer the Catholic Church exists, the more people "spin out of" her, and leave?[/quote]
true, most of the west was sortof under Catholic Church rule for a while, but not most of the world.

I think that you can only count good, honest, Magesterium obeying Catholics as being truly under the Catholic Church banner. I don't see very many of these people 'spin out' of The Church. Mostly it's people that didn't really know or care about God in the first place.

Honestly, i'd rather see these people go become good Protestants than be bad Catholics. Usually it seems that they either do this, or they simply fall away from Christianity all together.

[quote]So, rather than being the INEVITABLE choice, the arrogant title of this thread, it seems more and more, to the be biological choice, where people are born physically INTO it, and move out later in life by choice. [/quote]
this wasn't a statement, it was a question. it's hardly arrogant to ask a question.

[quote] I honestly wonder how many convert into the Catholic Church in American, excluding those who are doing so because they are getting married to a Catholic Church faithful and want to be the same religion?[/quote]

yes, this would be an interesting stat. I suspect that it's roughly 30% convert on their own, and 70% convert to marry. That's pure speculation of course. 2/7 of those that married into my dad's family were born Catholic, and 3/7 were Catholic before they met the person they married. (All were Catholic by the time they got married, however.)

[willguy]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 12:42 PM'] "IF" you guys really are the ONE TRUE CHURCH and have had 2,000 years to make your case, how come everyone doesn't agree? At one point in time most were "sort of" united, but the longer the Catholic Church exists, the more people "spin out of" her, and leave? [/quote]
In the desert the Israelites left Moses. Wasn't he the head of the path to truth? Many disciples left Jesus after His Bread of Life discourse in John 6. Does that mean its not true if people leave it?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]Balanced nuanced presentations are not the favored form of debate here, I know that, this is the "dogmatics are us" board, and that is fine too, just don't try to get me to AGREE that you are the true chuch, for I don't believe ANY denomination is the true church, they are all flawed, even yours, sorry[/quote]

Sorry Bruce The Catholic Church IS The One True Church, that is just your opinion!

God Bless
Jason

[Bruce S]

[quote]In the desert the Israelites left Moses. Wasn't he the head of the path to truth? Many disciples left Jesus after His Bread of Life discourse in John 6. Does that mean its not true if people leave it? [/quote]

Beats me, I'm not God.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 12:13 PM']
Beats me, I'm not God. [/quote]
Bruce, you are better than this. For once just admit that you've been outflanked. it's hardly an issue that you can deny, and it makes you lose less respect if you at least *appear* to have an open mind.

I think you are prolly a pretty good person, but i don't think you are truly open to new ideas. you get defensive or clam up rather than saying 'ok, i guess you're right on *that* idea.' it would be better to *pretend* to listen and engage ideas rather than to ignore them.

Oh, and you don't need to give us your personal stats on mass attendance. it doesn't matter, you don't believe it's the real presence, so why do you go? either that or you believe it's the real presence and you simply refuse to admit the Church is right.

i'm sorry if i sound pretty harsh here.
MagiDragon

[Bruce S]

No the truth really is, I understand WHY the Jews immediately left Jesus after his blood and body and eat and drink statements.

It would take YOUR studying Judiasm for a year and attending Synagogue to understand, which I have done.

Catholics frame this in support of the Eucharist, and Protestants counter with symbolic, it really was neither.

You need to really take off the mindset of both versions, and get into the mindset of Jews of the period.

They left over Judaism, not because of Christian differences that we squabble over.

I didn't rise to the debate, because subtleness isn't something that is often understood here, here it is WE ARE RIGHT, PERIOD, end of story, most of the time.

Nuance isn't favored in these parts. So I usually don't bother.

[theculturewarrior]

I think Bruce may have a point, but since he hasn't elaborated on it, I will present it for him.

Last night I was listening to Fr. Groeschel on EWTN's bookmark. (BTW has anybody heard how he is doing, I don't know if it was a rerun). Fr. Groeschel distinguished between loving Christ and loving the Church.

Those who love the Church more, and believe in Christ because the Church teaches it, are quick to lose hope at problems within the Catholic Church, everything from scandals to watered down homilies to bad liturgy. I think many of the Catholics who leave for protestantism have been scandalized by their experience, however local, with Catholics, parish priests, etc.

However, Fr. Groeschel also spoke of those who loved Christ, and believe in the Church because Christ established it. He said these Catholics will realize that the Church has had problems before, scandals, bad bishops, etc., and it will not challenge their faith in God.

Either way, Catholicism teaches Truth. It is the True Church because it was established by Christ himself. "To whom shall we go? You, Lord, have the words of eternal life."

[twf]

I can verify what someone said earlier...indeed 150 000 adults will be entering into full communion with the Catholic Church in the USA alone this Holy Saturday. This despite all the scandals on the news. Show's who's really in charge. (Go to [url="http://zenit.org/english/"]http://zenit.org/english/[/url] for the full report).

"And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." There have been many scandals, many corruptions, many poor leaders in the Church throughout history, like the Scriptures foretold (remember that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a net that collects both good and bad fish...see Mat. 13:46-48), yet Christ keeps His Church going. Through thick and think, our Lord provides for His Church. It never dies...it stands firm on a solid foundation, even if many of it's members are less than sturdy.

[willguy]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 01:13 PM']
Beats me, I'm not God. [/quote]
Well, there goes my whole belief system.

But seriously, you've gotta be able to do better than that. You claim at the start that because people leave the Catholic Church then it is not the truth, but people have always left the truth. The Bible gives testimony to people leaving the truth. If it was true that once people found truth they never left it, then no religion in the world would be the truth, because they have all had people leave.

[quote]I didn't rise to the debate, because subtleness isn't something that is often understood here, here it is WE ARE RIGHT, PERIOD, end of story, most of the time.

Nuance isn't favored in these parts. So I usually don't bother. [/quote]

Welcome to our side of the table. You ever tried being a Catholic on an evangelical board? I have. You don't get a word out of your mouth (symbolically) before they start preaching another lie or half-truth. And when you try to present an arguement that they can't counter, they write you off as an idiot who blindly follows the Church, doesn't read scripture, and will probably burn in hell for worshiping Mary. You walked into our territory, don't be surprised when we defend it.

[Lounge Daddy]

[font="Courier"]So, Catholic or not -
I am curious... what has brought you to Christianity on your quest for truth?
Why Christianity?[/font]