Calling All Protestants

[Bruce S]

[quote]I'm obedient to what the Catholic Church tells me to do[/quote]

Of course.

No matter what, right? If the leadership would tell you to ... say ...

Holy War, would you fight one?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 01:00 PM']
Yes I have, and to me, it is the most obnoxious show on EWTN.

Imagine the cries of BIGOTRY, that would ensue here, if TBN had a show called LEAVING ROME, where the focus every week were Nuns and Priests who LEFT the Catholic Church?

That entire show is in terrible poor taste.

Frankly, I wonder why someone hasn't done that show, just to show EWTN how bad that format really is....

:ph34r: :angry: [/quote]
hehe, I don't know to much about the show. I don't have a tv. I forgot that the show existed actually. I was speaking of the organization, because I know some of the people who run it. Their apostolate is primarily to assist protestant pastors who are seeking to enter the Church (because it can be so difficult in terms of life change, persecution etc), so I've heard many things about the numbers and stuff. That's all I was talking about.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 01:08 PM']
Of course.

No matter what, right? If the leadership would tell you to ... say ...

Holy War, would you fight one? [/quote]
Because I know that the Church is Christ's Church I believe everything that she teaches as true. If I lived in the medieval world I suppose I would join a holy war, but such things are hardly comprehensible to us moderns. It's a different world. Just like a lot of the stuff in the Bible about holy wars strikes moderns as a bit odd, it was a different world. Remember "the three"? David's top three warriors? Those guys were so cool. I would love to have fought along side those guys.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 01:08 PM']
Of course.

No matter what, right? If the leadership would tell you to ... say ...

Holy War, would you fight one?[/quote]
Number one Bruce the Church would not call for "holy war".

Come up with something better?

The Pope is against war, thats a whole other issue.

I'm loyal to the Catholic Church, as much as you say you know about us, then you should know that the Church teaches, forgivness, mercy, love, prayer!!

Come on man?
God Bless
Jason

Edited April 4, 2004 by Jason

[Laudate_Dominum]

I thought this looked interesting.

[quote]CONVERSION TO CATHOLICISM

GENERAL OBSERVATIONS

Jaroslav Pelikan, a prominent Lutheran historical theologian, declared:

Neither Protestants nor Roman Catholics are entitled to act as though conversions in their direction always proceeded from sincerely Christian motives, while conversions in the other direction always proceeded from selfish or ignoble motives. Motivation is a complex and subtle thing, especially in matters of religion and most especially in a decision for or against conversion . . . Pilgrims in both directions are motivated by a mixture of desires and convictions . . .

The road to Rome has often been the road to a synthesis of faith and intellect which appeared impossible anywhere else. Americans . . . are surprised to see the number of intellectuals in Britain and in Europe who take the road to Rome in order to find freedom for their intellectual and cultural pursuits. Graham Greene, Evelyn Waugh, Edith Sitwell, Sigrid Undset, Gilbert K. Chesterton - these and many more transferred their allegiance to Rome because Protestantism did not seem to them capable of coordinating Christianity and culture without sacrificing one or the other or both . . . To all of them Rome represented a liberating force within whose walls they could do their creative work . . . There are certainly many instances where conversion to Roman Catholicism did not destroy, but rather heightened the creativity of a writer or artist . . .

Where they wanted to go, varied from one individual to the next, but a prominent feature for most of them was the reestablishment of Christian unity.

(The Riddle of Roman Catholicism, New York: Abingdon Press, 1959, 205, 208-209, ch. 14: "The Way of Salvation")

Hilaire Belloc (1870-1953), the French-English journalist, historian and critic, asserts a Catholic perspective on conversion:

In proportion as men know less and less of the subject . . . they attempt some simple definition of the mind which ultimately accepts Catholicism. They will call it a desire for security; or an attraction of the senses . . . A very little experience of typical converts in our time makes nonsense of such theories. Men and women enter by every conceivable gate, after every conceivable process of slow intellectual examination, of shock, of vision, of moral trial . . .

The Church is the natural home of the Human Spirit. The truth is that if you seek for an explanation of the phenomenon of conversion under any system which bases that phenomenon on illusion, you arrive at no answer to your question.

(Foreword to The Catholic Church and Conversion, by G.K. Chesterton, New York: Macmillan, 1926, 6-8)

G.K. CHESTERTON'S "THREE STAGES" OF CONVERSION

Gilbert Keith Chesterton (1874-1936), a famous convert to Catholicism, wrote brilliantly about three phases of conversion, which seem to be fairly typical of many, if not most, converts (including myself):

The convert commonly passes through three stages or states of mind. The first is when he imagines himself to be entirely detached . . . that of the young philosopher who feels that he ought to be fair to the Church of Rome. He wishes to do it justice; but chiefly because he sees that it suffers injustice . . . I had no more idea of becoming a Catholic than of becoming a cannibal. I imagined that I was merely pointing out that justice should be done even to cannibals . . .

The second stage is that in which the convert begins to be conscious not only of the falsehood but the truth . . . It consists in discovering what a very large number of lively and interesting ideas there are in the Catholic philosophy . . . This process, which may be called discovering the Catholic Church, is perhaps the most pleasant and straightforward part of the business . . . It is like discovering a new continent full of strange flowers and fantastic animals, which is at once wild and hospitable . . . It is these numberless glimpses of great ideas, that have been hidden from the convert by the prejudices of his provincial culture, that constitute the adventurous and varied second stage of the conversion. It is, broadly speaking, the stage in which the man is unconsciously trying to be converted . . .

The third stage is perhaps . . . the most terrible. It is that in which the man is trying not to be converted . . . He is filled with a sort of fear . . . He discovers a strange and alarming fact . . . a truth that Newman and every other convert has probably found in one form or another. It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it . . .

All steps except the last step he has taken eagerly on his own account, out of interest in the truth . . . I for one was never less troubled by doubts than in the last phase, when I was troubled by fears. Before that final delay I had been detached and ready to regard all sorts of doctrines with an open mind . . . I had no doubts or difficulties just before. I had only fears; fears of something that had the finality and simplicity of suicide . . . It may be that I shall never again have such absolute assurance that the thing is true as I had when I made my last effort to deny it . . .

At the last moment of all, the convert often feels as if . . . he is look through a little crack or crooked hole that seems to grow smaller as he stares at it; but it is an opening that looks towards the Altar. Only, when he has entered the Church, he finds that the Church is much larger inside than it is outside . . .

There is generally an interval of intense nervousness . . . To a certain extent it is a fear which attaches to all sharp and irrevocable decisions; it is suggested in all the old jokes about the shakiness of the bridegroom at the wedding . . . He wonders whether the whole business is an extraordinarily intelligent and ingenious confidence trick . . . There is in the last second of time or hair's breadth of space, before the iron leaps to the magnet, an abyss full of all the unfathomable forces of the universe . . . That anything described as so bad should turn out to be so good is itself a rather arresting process having a savour of something sensational and strange . . .

(The Catholic Church and Conversion, NY: Macmillan, 1926, 57-66)[/quote]

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Apr 4 2004, 12:55 PM'] A whole swarm of protestants from CRI (Christian Research Institute) converted a while back, that place was famous for its "critiques" of Catholicism. Funny so many of their scholars are now Catholic. [/quote]
I didn't know that, that's cool; I got the [i]Christian Research Journal[/i] for a couple of years; it had some interesting articles in it.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 4 2004, 01:28 PM'] I didn't know that, that's cool; I got the [i]Christian Research Journal[/i] for a couple of years; it had some interesting articles in it. [/quote]
Yeah, some of their articles are quite good. I mainly start having problems when they attack the Faith.

God bless.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Apr 4 2004, 01:48 PM'] Yeah, some of their articles are quite good. I mainly start having problems when they attack the Faith.

God bless. [/quote]
Right; when I was a subscriber (2 yrs or so ago) that wasn't such a big deal to me. Things are different nowadays ...

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 4 2004, 12:45 PM'] lol. okay okay. I'll bite. Who are your "heavy hitters" that will eat scott hahn alive? [/quote]
I'm pretty sure that Chuck Missler could take him in a debate.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Lookie what I [url="http://www.dotm.org/unbelief.htm"]FOUND!!![/url] Please read it all.

It's ggggoooooddddd oh ya!!!

You have to read the whole article to get the full meaning, so please do so before posting anything!!

In the Love Of Christ,
Jason

[Dave]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 01:04 PM'] The door swings both ways, everyone knows that. Some elect IN, others OUT.

I guess one needs to settle in wherever the Lord leads ya. [/quote]
Problem: The Lord never leads people out of the Church. Those who leave don't do it because of God. They may misguidedly think they're going where God wants to lead them, though.

[willguy]

[quote]The door swings both ways, everyone knows that. Some elect IN, others OUT.

I guess one needs to settle in wherever the Lord leads ya.[/quote]

I follow a God of truth. There is one truth, and it is not contradictory. I do not follow a God of confusion. Therefore, God will not lead separate people to contradictory truths.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]Like I said, most Catholics need the doc dump to prevail, one on one, they don't have the verbal skills that Protestants normally develop[/quote]

Wrong again Bruce!

I know a few right here at phatmass that would do just fine "one on one"!

The Holy Spirit is moving on evanglizing in the Catholic Church.

Catholics know alot more, the Holy Spirit is moving, Amen!

Long live JPII and Christ's Holy Catholic Church.

One person to go one on one with would be Scott Hahn. lol

But you can't talk without prayer. If your in it to be right your going in circles!

I'm nothing, I only know what I know because God so graciously has given it to me. I don't deserve it! "Who is good but God alone."

Humility it's what they call a virtue, practice it. We all need to!

God Bless
Jason

Edited April 5, 2004 by Jason

[Justified Saint]

Laudate_Dominum,

Which debates do you think Matatics mopped the floor with White? I don't doubt it of course but they have had at least a dozen of them and I think Matatics hasn't done as good on some of them as others.

I agree with you though, these kinds of debates are more like dramas and Mr. White certainly places way too much importance on them. They can be good things but not when you engage in the kind of self-congratulatory triumph that Mr. White does, when this takes place it suggests something other than a honest discussion of the relevant issue. If he spent lest time boasting of "winning" his debates he might have more time to respond to the several lengthy critiques of his work out there that he has cleverly chosen to ignore. Of course I would too if I were him.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Apr 4 2004, 10:23 PM'] Laudate_Dominum,

Which debates do you think Matatics mopped the floor with White? I don't doubt it of course but they have had at least a dozen of them and I think Matatics hasn't done as good on some of them as others.

I agree with you though, these kinds of debates are more like dramas and Mr. White certainly places way too much importance on them. They can be good things but not when you engage in the kind of self-congratulatory triumph that Mr. White does, when this takes place it suggests something other than a honest discussion of the relevant issue. If he spent lest time boasting of "winning" his debates he might have more time to respond to the several lengthy critiques of his work out there that he has cleverly chosen to ignore. Of course I would too if I were him. [/quote]
There was one on Sola Scriptura that Matatics did a great job on. And I can think of another one on Mary's perpetual virginity that was pretty sweet.
My favorite was an online debate between White and Gallegos, in which White came out looking utterly foolish. It was a debate on the Fathers of course.

What do you think of the old White vs. Akin debate? Just wondering because I actually haven't heard that one although I've seen it for sale on Catholic Answer's website so I assume its pretty interesting.

I actually try to stay away from that stuff these days. I had a phase where I was kind of hooked on all that, but I don't think it was healthy. Its kind of like watching WWF or something. And I used to daydream a lot about what I would say to these guys if I could debate them. Ha! I'm sure an experienced debater like that would run circles around this rookie. When I was a teenager I used to daydream about which moves I would use if I were to fight Mike Tyson. I can dream on.

God bless.

[Justified Saint]

The Akin and White debate was a gem for sure. I must confess though that I bought it from White's website It saved me like 15 dollars so what was I to do? Now, the first mp3 was a little cut off at the end when James Akin was saying something, sabotage on White's part perhaps? :ph34r:

Indeed, White's debate with Gallegos was good. I printed out and read the debate on the papacy and printed out the one on sola scriptura too but I haven't gotten around to reading that one yet. I have also got the correspondence between White and Dave Armstrong printed out and have read most of that. White did look utterly foolish debating Gallegos. Can you shed any light on the format? Did White literally have nothing to say to all of Gallegos' arguments?

What do you think of White's upcoming debate in May with Gary Michuta? Or am I tempting you?

[Dusty Fro]

Wow, now I know how non-Christians feel when Christians say "YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THE BIBLE! YOU ARE WRONG! TAKE THAT!"

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='Apr 5 2004, 12:20 AM'] Wow, now I know how non-Christians feel when Christians say "YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THE BIBLE! YOU ARE WRONG! TAKE THAT!" [/quote]
What do you mean? I have no clue what you're talking about..

[Dusty Fro]

I'm not Catholic, though I am a Christian interested in the Catholic faith and have considered becoming formally Catholic at certain times during my life. When y'all shove articles and speeches and scriptures in non-Catholics faces, saying "Neener neener, you're wrong," it doesn't show the kind of love one expects from a follower of Jesus. Jesus gently showed the way to people who didn't have the whole picture, and the only times that he was short with people were when the Pharisees and people at the tables in front of the church were trying to keep people from finding the whole truth.

I've had my self righteous days, and I see how it turns people off to God.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 4 2004, 12:00 PM']
Yes I have, and to me, it is the most obnoxious show on EWTN.

Imagine the cries of BIGOTRY, that would ensue here, if TBN had a show called LEAVING ROME, where the focus every week were Nuns and Priests who LEFT the Catholic Church?

That entire show is in terrible poor taste.

Frankly, I wonder why someone hasn't done that show, just to show EWTN how bad that format really is....

:ph34r: :angry: [/quote]
Except for the fact that those that convert.

1.) Convert because they UNDERSTAND the Church teachings.
2.) Never bad mouth or trash talk their former "home".
3.) Are much better Christians.


On the contrary, if there were such a show as "leaving Rome", you would expect, as proven by others, that.

1.) They left the Church because the DIDN'T understand. And they would talk about what they felt or thought was the Teaching of the Church, which in reality, when studied, isn't the Teaching at all.
2.) They (some anyway) couldn't pry themselves away from a particular sin (i.e. active homosexuality, divorce / remarriage, contraception).
3.) They would most likely bash and bad mouth the Church.


I've seen the show and it is in extremely GOOD taste. It is very informative.