Why No "pew Bibles?"

[Aloysius]

Bruce, i ask you again, if God hides this message from the wise, why must one study the cultural context of each line, why must one read commentary after commentary to try to go back in time to that place so that they might understand the intentions of those words? is that not becoming one of the earthly wise?

but us Catholics have a much simpler way of knowing what the scriptures intended to say: what today's Apostles consent that it means, what the Rock proclaims and what councils solemnly declare. thus we do not need thousands of commentaries, for all we have to do is ask someone else who has learned Catholic teaching. We learn from each other, from the past and the present, the sciptures and traditions, and we know where to place our trust. we do not rely on our own intellect to know where to place our trust, that would be chasing truth with our mind the way people the scripture talks about wisdom being hidden from did, we trust in the Church for matters of faith and morals and have no need to bicker over such things, no need to read and read and read to find what it's supposed to mean.

Pax et Amorque Christi

~*on the Phorum, words are necessary*~

[M.SIGGA]

um...

I go to a Catholic Church and we have Bibles and Missals available, but I'm not arguing that it is [b]absolutely[/b] necessary because I agree the Mass isn't meant to be a Bible study, but a PRAYER - plus I don't think anyone mentioned that most of the Mass is actually Scripture (all the prayers/ liturgy of the Eucharist, etc.) and much more than in a Low Church Protestant service...

Anyway, I really like it because if anything it helps me learn the Scriptures with the little commentaries at the bottom and it also helps me to see the coorelations of the Scriptures with other Scripture verses, and I don't agree with the low church protestant method, but I respect it - and all of this can be done before and after Mass too...

so... Sometimes I bring my Bible to Mass and we have some; that's all.

[Winchester]

[quote]Today was "Communion Day" at two church's I attended. I had to go to another one, Presbyterian one with a friend then on to my AofG church. Both do communion once a month.

Guess what. The WORDS surrounding the communion were just about identical in both, and almost perfectly identical to the Catholic Church communion part of Mass.

The ONLY thing really 'different' was the Priest.

The passages, invocations, and such are so similar, that you could swear they are all the same.

So, it is the PRIEST, the MAN up front, that is the differentiating factor, not what is done.

So, you really believe more in the PRIEST than activity, the consecration is the issue, not the communion.

Of course, you would have to take the blinders off to notice the similarities, and have less denominational bias. Not really all that likely.

[/quote]
Leaps of logic that would stun a dog.
It is not a question of believing more in the priest, as your mutant version of a syllogism proposed, it is the authority handed down that gives the activity meaning. I can repeat all the speeches, write out all the commands given by a president, but since I hold not his office, they are merely the motions.

It's a question of authority, not of "the MAN"

Try harder, Brucey; you look like the Chickster out there, cripes.

[Bruce S]

[quote]you look like the Chickster out there, cripes...[/quote]

Nah, you are not the Whore of Babylon...grin, or ARE you? And don't forget to mention my "support" for the wafer god too.... [not], but then again...grin.

Chick pisses you off, he must be hitting some raw nerves, I might have to buy some tracts.

Hey, some are cartoonists, others KNOW, and some that do know, don't think you are right on many things, I guess that is why we don't worship in the same Cathedral..

Smooch.

Remember, 2/3rds of Americans are NOT Catholic, and do NOT agree with most of this stuff, and in Europe, where Catholicism is almost officially the state religions, latest polls show that ONLY 15% to 5% of those living in France, Italy, Spain even bother to go to Mass on a given Sunday.

Here in the USA it is 40-45% by most polls. And this is higest in the South, where you call it the Bible belt, and I guess, it is.

[quote]PRINCETON, N.J. -- Weekly church attendance among U.S. Catholics "appears to be on the rebound" from an all-time low of 35 percent last February, but the level of church attendance by Protestants remains higher, according to poll data released by Gallup.

"Historical [b]Gallup Poll data show that Protestants have now clearly overtaken Catholics in church attendance, for the first time in Gallup polling history," [/b]said a commentary by George H. Gallup Jr., chairman of the George H. Gallup International Institute.

The November 2003 data show that 45 percent of Catholics and 48 percent of Protestants say they attend church services weekly. Nine months earlier, the figures were [b]35 percent for Catholics and 47 percent for Protestants.[/b]
COPYRIGHT 2004 [b]National Catholic Reporter[/b]
[/quote]

Note source.

[quote]The traditional pattern of Catholics being less likely than Protestants to attend church during the weekend has returned. While in 2000 49% of Catholics attend church in a typical week, compared to 47% of Protestants, (2000), [b]2002 saw 53% of Protestants attend church versus 46% of Catholics. (2002)[/b]
Source: Barna Research[/quote]

[quote]The survey released December 18 said the number of Catholics who said they had attended Mass in the last week fell to 41 percent, compared to 46 percent in 2001.

The organization said it could not provide a direct link between the scandal and Mass attendance, because Catholic church attendance had started dropping before the crisis erupted last January. But the survey also found that there was no similar decline in church attendance by Protestants over the same period. For the first time in the decades-long history of the Gallup survey,[b] Protestants now attend weekly church services at a higher rate than Catholics, 47 percent to 41 percent.[/b]Source: CWNews [/quote]

[Livin_the_MASS]

lol, you like pointing the fingure huh? lol give it up Bruce!

[Bruce S]

OK.

I give up.

I guess I will have to light a Lenten candle tonight at the foot washing Mass.

Pray for ME, and I will for YOU.

Let the Holy Spirit sort out our differences.

[dUSt]

The day that a Gallup poll dictates how I worship God is the day my dog will start to sing the Dukes of Hazzard theme song while boiling cabbage.

[Bruce S]

[quote]The day that a Gallup poll dictates how I worship God is the day my dog will start to sing the Dukes of Hazzard theme song while boiling cabbage.[/quote]

Good one. But polls are interesting, and they don't test belief, those ones only test church attendence, who gets up, and leaves the home to worship corporately.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 8 2004, 09:59 AM']The day that a Gallup poll dictates how I worship God is the day my dog will start to sing the Dukes of Hazzard theme song while boiling cabbage.[/quote]
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :thatsfunny: :thatsfunny:

[willguy]

Hey Bruce,

I'm still waiting for a good reason to have pew Bibles.

[Bruce S]

[quote]I'm still waiting for a good reason to have pew Bibles.
[/quote]

Missalettes are Us.

Who needs Bibles, just go with what you are given, apparently you are happy, so stay happy. I'm really done with this one, if you don't feel the need, don't. After all, we do have them, and many never pick one up, same thing, relying on the Pastor or Priest to do your work for you, hey, most of the world is lazy anyway.

Doing your own thinking is just so passe anyway, we live in a world of mini this and mini that, so why not mini missalettes?

I go to a bible study, it takes about an hour beforehand to prepare for the upcoming lesson, and an hour and a half for the study, so, to do a few pages is three hours, it will take three years to complete, starting on page one and going to the last page.

That really is a HARD work effort, and frankly, I would love to have them just tell me what is important, and what to think. However, that negates being a human, and makes one a lump of clay, to be either properly lead, or misled, and without some basis for independent thought, who really would know?

[Sojourner]

Just because we don't have pew Bibles doesn't mean we don't have our own Bibles at home, and it doesn't mean we don't study them.

[PassionistF]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 8 2004, 03:48 PM']
Missalettes are Us.

Who needs Bibles, just go with what you are given, apparently you are happy, so stay happy. I'm really done with this one, if you don't feel the need, don't. After all, we do have them, and many never pick one up, same thing, relying on the Pastor or Priest to do your work for you, hey, most of the world is lazy anyway.

Doing your own thinking is just so passe anyway, we live in a world of mini this and mini that, so why not mini missalettes?

I go to a bible study, it takes about an hour beforehand to prepare for the upcoming lesson, and an hour and a half for the study, so, to do a few pages is three hours, it will take three years to complete, starting on page one and going to the last page.

That really is a HARD work effort, and frankly, I would love to have them just tell me what is important, and what to think. However, that negates being a human, and makes one a lump of clay, to be either properly lead, or misled, and without some basis for independent thought, who really would know? [/quote]
Bruce,

Before I address your posting, I have a question or two for you.

Why are you so snide and come across as being so angry about issues like this? You're entire post is quite presumptuous with regard to what Catholics do with the rest of their week while not at the Mass (which by the way is celebrated daily, unlike Protestant "services") And who might I ask is being "served" anyway? Is it God? Or, are the faithful being served or perhaps the Preacher? That really was not very clear to me as a Protestant, at a "service", who is being served?

Maybe this is the crux of the difference between a service and the Mass.

You have a desire to study Scripture very intensely. I find nothing wrong with that, I find it very commendable. And in fact, I do so myself every day by reading morning readings, the readings of the Mass and evening readings.

I'm also an assistant youth minister and study very intently the Bible, the Catechism, writings of the Church Doctors and Biblical concordances. I do this for a couple of hours in preparation for every meeting we have.

However Bruce as you know, the Mass is not Bible Study time. And while I will agree with you that there are some Catholics who could do a better job in the area of Scripture study, this doesn't give you or I the right to look down our nose at them. The Mass is preparation for residency in Heaven itself. (We will be studying the book The Lamb's Supper on another thread if you care to join us.)
So, if this is what Catholics believe (and I do believe it too), that Mass is where Heaven and Earth meet only by the Grace of God, then why would Bibles be important in such a celebration? When you get to Heaven Bruce, are you going to have your nose buried in God's Word, highlighter in hand? Or, are you going to pick up your head and look around?

To look at it from my perspective knowing what both a "service" is and what the Mass is, I would ask you this: If you want to know when Catholics study the Bible, I would ask you when do Protestants find time to worship God the Father while engaging in such intense "highlighter evaporating", passage under-lining, brow furrowing study on Sundays? When do you put the books down for a minute and simply worship Him? Or better yet, when do you put the books down for a minute and begin living what you have read? Where is the Christian charity for your Catholic Brothers and Sisters? If you as a Protestant are right, and we as Catholics are wrong, where do we witness this in your actions of charity in speech to us? This is a problem that some Christians have.

[u][b]Pagans call it hypocrisy [/b][/u]Bruce, and it isn't very becoming.

As you may not be aware, Catholics engage in weekday Scripture studies, teach Catholic Education to school children and young adults on weeknights and work with youth groups at their Parishes during the week. The last two require certification that requires many hours of Theological study and accreditation.

I think that you may be without realizing it, (or maybe you do, I don't know) painting all Catholics as "Scripture ignorant". And if this is the case, I ask you to look deeper into why Catholics study Scripture versus why Protestants do.

As I have been "one of each", I can tell you that Protestants are more likely to be "aggressive" in their challenges of Catholics with regard to Scripture interpretation. And while some blame may be rightly placed squarely on poor catechesis of Catholics, that doesn't give you or anyone else the divine right to be so "self-righteous" in your corrections of your Catholic Brothers and Sisters.

Please at least see that we believe that the Mass is a preparation for Heaven, it is Heaven on Earth. And with this understanding, try to at least accept (not agree with mind you) that Catholics really do study the Bible. Some do so by following along in the missalettes provided, some like me read [i]Magnificat[/i] (missalette like publication), others do bring Bibles and some simply sit there and listen. And yes, some don't do any of the above and might sleep (I've witnessed Protestants at sleep in a service or two myself). But, is that in itself a reason to condemn all of your brothers and sisters?

There is a saying in the Catholic Church that several have shared with me. Some have found out about my conversion and have said to me "You converts make the best Catholics". I have news for you Bruce, I'm here to evangelize my Catholic Brothers and Sisters who have been cradle Catholics. I'm here to teach them how to be better Catholics, better students of Scripture.

But, I will evangelize them not by turning them off, but by turning them on to the rich history of their faith, the beauty of the Scriptures found contained in the Mass, as well as the peaceful benefits that God graces us with when we read His Word everyday. We aren't going to be "memorizing" for the purpose of attacking others Bruce. We will be living our faith through the lens of Scripture. We will be relevant, and we will be moving out into this world to show others what Catholicism is all about by living the Word.

I promise you Bruce, I am going to try and be the best Catholic that I can be. And I am going to do it in a non-combative way toward those who I feel "could do better" in the areas of Scripture study. Christ provided a perfect example for us, he visited with and healed the lepers and sinners of His time. He didn't spend as much time with the Scribes and Pharisees of His time.

Scribes and Pharisees didn't have highlighters Bruce, but their heads were buried. Buried too far into the literal meaning of words to hear God's voice speaking to them.

Peace to you my Brother, I truly wish you a holy and joyous Triduum as we approach the glorious Morning of the empty tomb.

Pachem,

[willguy]

^---ditto.

Bruce, your condescending remarks aside, you didn't answer my question yet again. Why, during a Church service, is there a need to provide Bibles? You've been to Mass, what point would having a Bible be?

[yiannii]

Chick is seriously weird!

[Bruce S]

[quote] You've been to Mass, what point would having a Bible be?[/quote]

None.

None whatsoever. It would only get people with highlighers buried in that book, and that can't be encouraged, I got that clearly, so we focus on the intended passages, and context is to be given only by the Priest.

Got it.

It is just so...

Simpler this way, and such a neat package predigested and delivered.

Works you you, so why not?

[yiannii]

People can surely do that at home with their own Bibles. I don't know if customs are different over in the US but where I come from we don't make personal marks on property that we don't own.

[MC Just]

Not to be mean, but why would you ask that? We are not Protestant, we came before that. As for bibles in the pews, yes we have the missaletes, which contain the word of God. We don't just pull out bibles and pick choose verses to scream about. We are "Organized" If we go to daily mass we will hear the entire bible from Gen-Rev in a year. If we are devoute The Word will be put into our hearts. We just don't get all extreme and crazy over the bible, we are peaceful about it.

[yiannii]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 10 2004, 02:31 AM'] We don't just pull out bibles and pick choose verses to scream about. [/quote]
HAHAHAHAHA

I think I just woke up the entire household.

[Paladin D]

Hey Bruce, if you want to play the statistic game, fine by me.

You said that...

[quote name='"Bruce"']Remember, 2/3rds of Americans are NOT Catholic, and do NOT agree with most of this stuff, and in Europe, where Catholicism is almost officially the state religions, latest polls show that ONLY 15% to 5% of those living in France, Italy, Spain even bother to go to Mass on a given Sunday.

Here in the USA it is 40-45% by most polls. And this is higest in the South, where you call it the Bible belt, and I guess, it is.[/quote]

First you must understand this. Many Christians can just leave their church and go to another, or even start their own. To say that [b]"Catholics disagree with most of the CC doctrine"[/b], is illogical if you compare it to the many many different denominations and sub-sects within them. Heck, some Baptists believe in tongues while some do not.

Secondly, I am [b]not[/b] denying that there isn't a large Christian population in the South. However, I find it interesting how the [b]Bible-belt[/b] has the highest crime rate out of the 4 regions in the United States.

[url="http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime1.aspx"]http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime1.aspx[/url]

[i]The FBI's Crime Index rate reflects the total number of offenses per 100,000 residents. According to the FBI, the national Crime Index rate for 2002 was 4,118. The Northeast region of the United States had the lowest crime of the four regions, with a rate of 2,889 offenses per 100,000 population. The next lowest region was the Midwest, with a Crime Index rate of 3,883 offenses. The Western region followed with a rate of 4,418 offenses, [b]while the Southern region showed the highest crime rate of 4,722 offenses per 100,000 residents.[/b][/i]

They also have three lists full of cities, in the [b]Large[/b], [b]Medium[/b] and [b]Small[/b] categories.

[b]100 Large Metro Areas[/b] - [url="http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime3.aspx"]http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime3.aspx[/url]

[b]114 Medium Metro Areas[/b] - [url="http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime4.aspx"]http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime4.aspx[/url]

[b]117 Small Metro Areas[/b] - [url="http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime5.aspx"]http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime5.aspx[/url]


So the point I'm trying to make is... the [b]"Bible-belt"[/b] is full of Christians, yet [b]full of crime[/b]. It boggles my mind, while the North East (and Midwest) have large Catholic populations, and have the lowest crime rates.




If anyone is interested, [b]Atlanta, GA[/b] is actually thee worst city in crime in the USA. [url="http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime6.aspx"]http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime6.aspx[/url] It's shocking... [b]murder rate 520% higher than national average[/b].