musturde Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 My comrade asked me a very intruiguing question the other day... Why would God create someone if he knows that person will end up in Hell? He persisted to infer that God is malevolent if he makes someone who he knows will fail at salvation. He understands the idea of free will but he pointed out that no one chooses to be born and God ultimately made the choice to create a being knowing he would be damned. What are your thoughts?
Sternhauser Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 It is better to exist in hell than not to exist at all. ~Sternhauser
Selah Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 [quote]It is better to exist in hell than not to exist at all. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Your quote is full of FAIL. [quote]Why would God create someone if he knows that person will end up in Hell?[/quote] God gives us all a choice on what we want to do. He allows us to choose life or death, and unfortunatly, many choose death.
musturde Posted October 2, 2009 Author Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='Selah' date='01 October 2009 - 08:41 PM' timestamp='1254444103' post='1975965'] Your quote is full of FAIL. God gives us all a choice on what we want to do. He allows us to choose life or death, and unfortunatly, many choose death. [/quote] True, but he chooses to make the damned person. It's not the choice of the damned person to be in existence. Although it may be his choice to be damned, why would God make someone knowing this?
Selah Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 [quote] True, but he chooses to make the damned person. It's not the choice of the damned person to be in existence. Although it may be his choice to be damned, why would God make someone knowing this? [/quote] He made the person to be good, not to be damned. None of us are born damned, it is a choice. To me, this is better than simply creating a bunch of robots without free will who have no concept of freedom. That may sound ideal, but the love wouldn't be real, it would be preprogrammed. God wants our love and devotion to be sincere.
Sternhauser Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Selah' date='01 October 2009 - 08:41 PM' timestamp='1254444103' post='1975965'] Your quote is full of FAIL. [/quote] Your post is full of anger. Why? Which is better? Existence, or non-existence? ~Sternhauser Edited October 2, 2009 by Sternhauser
Selah Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 I suggest you start a new thread if you wish to continue that debate.
Sternhauser Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Selah' date='01 October 2009 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1254445667' post='1975982'] I suggest you start a new thread if you wish to continue that debate. [/quote] My question is intrinsically linked to answering his question. Which is better? Existence, or non-existence? ~Sternhauser Edited October 2, 2009 by Sternhauser
CatherineM Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 Just because a parent knows a child is going to go down the wrong path doesn't mean that they can't hope the child will choose differently.
dairygirl4u2c Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 the ultimate 'why' is 'just because'. it's the inherent nature of the situation, why he made us with free will, and why free will is essential to our relationship with God. like asking 'why is a triangle not a square' or 'why do stars expand in the galaxy'. that's just the way it is. it's a mystery, but one that's inherently so. plus i dont think God is being bad about it... most probably want to be in hell, at least if you accept modern understandings of hell. if heaven is going outside to help the homeless, and we dont do it, we've chosen our fate. not that that's whatheaven and hell is, but.
musturde Posted October 2, 2009 Author Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' date='01 October 2009 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1254446250' post='1975987'] Just because a parent knows a child is going to go down the wrong path doesn't mean that they can't hope the child will choose differently. [/quote] But God is omnipotent. He knows the child won't. No matter what. Unless he decides by some gracious maneuver to un-beaver dam him, but then he would know beforehand that he was going to choose to change his mind in the future.
Nunsense Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 Trying to understand the mind of God is a little like trying to empty the ocean with a teaspoon. God is infinitely good. He chose to create man, and He chose to give us freewill, out of His goodness and His love for us. What we do with this freewill is our choice. Satan made his choice, we make our choices. That doesn't make any statement about God's goodness because His ways are so far above our ways that we could never begin to understand the mind of God. Even the psalmist says "What are humans that you are mindful of them, mere mortals that you care for them?" (Ps 8) To say that God knows everything and then to ask why would He do something a certain way is just so "inside out". We are using a limited tool (our mind) to judge the unlimited mind of an infinitely good (which we can't begin to comprehend) and infinitely loving and "uncreated" being! Humans are always trying to judge Him but it just can't be done.
OraProMe Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 The omnipotence of God suggest He knows where we'll end up after this life. So I think this is a valid question. Perhaps also why would God create the Human race if he knew we'd go off the tracks and the vast majority of us (according to the saints) would go to Hell?
Nunsense Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='02 October 2009 - 10:53 PM' timestamp='1254480794' post='1976145'] The omnipotence of God suggest He knows where we'll end up after this life. So I think this is a valid question. Perhaps also why would God create the Human race if he knew we'd go off the tracks and the vast majority of us (according to the saints) would go to Hell? [/quote] "...why would God create the human race...?" Indeed. From His infinite love and goodness. This is what we just can't seem to grasp or even begin to understand. Because His goodness is so far beyond anything we can possibly imagine. He created us "in love" and "out of love" and His love for us is what sustains our lives. Because of the gift of free will, He knows that we might not all do what is best for our souls, but like any parent, that doesn't stop Him from wanting us to have life. And because of His love, He has done everything possible to ensure our salvation... it's up to us now to respond to Him.
elizabeth09 Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 Adam and Eve sinned, but we are saved thought Jesus who died for us on the Cross. If God did not create us as humans, then who will take care of His World? I mean that if God knows that one person is going to hell, then He knows that that one person always come back to us, as meaning good.
mommas_boy Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 October 2009 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1254443816' post='1975962'] It is better to exist in hell than not to exist at all. ~Sternhauser [/quote] I had a teacher in high school who was formerly a seminarian. He asked us a question that neither he nor any of his students knew the answer to: if we need God in order to stay in existence, and Hell is the absence of God, then how would someone "in Hell" stay in existence? They can't simply "not exist", because the devil and his demons are in Hell, and the Church teaches that they and their influence are real, and so they must also still exist. Something to think about, anyway.
Aloysius Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 stern's quote is, in fact, full of win. non-existence is a greater evil than eternal suffering. sadly, modern philosophy would prefer non-existence to a suffering existence; however, they are absolutely wrong in this regard. hell is a form of redemption and mercy by which God gives even the worst of the human race a continued eternal existence.
ardillacid Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 It would be better for him not to be born...
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