Should Women Serve On Navy Subs?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 October 2009 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1255060858' post='1981448']
Can't stand it when men do this.
[/quote]
[img]http://www.ihasaflavor.com/lolcats/i-sorry.jpg[/img]

[Maximilianus]

From my experience in the military it would not be a good idea to have women in subs. It's not that women can't perform with he same acumen as men, but putting men and women together will cause all kinds of extra interpersonal problems that will effect the morale and effectiveness of a unit, stuff that is not needed in times of warfighting.

Support units that have mixed units already have to handle the added issues of sexual harrassment, fraternization and all the social politics involved when co-workers get intimately involved. A unit/vessel whose primary task is combat doesn't need that headache.


...plus girls have cooties.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Maximilianus

[eagle_eye222001]

Mixing men and women on a sub is asking for trouble. The temptations for both sides and the amount of time typically spent at sea.....seriously....I only see problems coming from this.

The space scenario is a bit different because only a very small number of astronauts are up in space at any point in time and NASA knows what is going on virtually all the time....I mean...wouldn't it be obvious if stuff was going on? There are many more submarine units than space units and therefore the opportunity to get away with stuff would increase so I do not accept the analogy that if it works for astronauts than it will work for sub units.

As for women only subs? I don't know. Definitely not men and women subs though!

[StColette]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 October 2009 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1255056987' post='1981411']
What if they spent too much time together and their cycles all synched?
The horror!
[/quote]

They would definitely be a force you wouldn't want to mess with. The enemy would run for their lives.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 October 2009 - 01:00 AM' timestamp='1255060858' post='1981448']
Can't stand it when men do this.
[/quote]

But it happens! I have been a part of it! It isn't pretty!

[Sojourner]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='08 October 2009 - 10:54 PM' timestamp='1255056860' post='1981408']
When I was in forestry school, we had to break into teams of 3 for summer field exercises. There were 23 guys, and 5 girls. 3 of us decided to make a team. The profs freaked out. They didn't like the idea at all, but eventually gave in. The other two girls each went on a different team of guys. The 3 of us spent the summer carrying equipment, learning to use it, and doing everything ourselves. The other two females spent the summer carrying a clipboard for the guys in their team, and never touched any of the equipment.

I think an all female sub crew would be great.
[/quote]
I agree that working with women is on the whole a great experience. I would not hesitate to work on a team of all women. It's the living AND working with them, for weeks at a time, in a small enclosed space, that would be hellish. There is a difference.

[Secuutus]

No.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Maximilianus' date='08 October 2009 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1255062516' post='1981496']
From my experience in the military it would not be a good idea to have women in subs. It's not that women can't perform with he same acumen as men, but putting men and women together will cause all kinds of extra interpersonal problems that will effect the morale and effectiveness of a unit, stuff that is not needed in times of warfighting.

Support units that have mixed units already have to handle the added issues of sexual harrassment, fraternization and all the social politics involved when co-workers get intimately involved. A unit/vessel whose primary task is combat doesn't need that headache.


...plus girls have cooties.
[/quote]

This reminded me of the discussion my dad and I had about women in combat. He said he knew women could do just as good a job as men, but he felt the mission itself would suffer because when there are women present, men will instinctively want to protect them. If a guy's mind is on protecting a woman in his unit instead of on his job, that puts everyone at risk. That would obviously be worse in an infantry platoon than it would be in a fighter pilot scenario. Women have been serving on naval ships for quite awhile. Combat ships not as long, but long enough. At least on a sub, there would be fewer places for indiscretions to happen than on a large air craft carrier. The bottom line on this decision may simply have to do with numbers.

[Marie-Therese]

My father was a Navy submariner during the Cold War. I grew up around sub guys and on the crafts themselves and know the climate and the type of life that it requires...and under no circumstances would I ever advocate a mixed gender crew. If they want to have female submariners, they should have their own craft, but I'm not even sure that is necessarily a great idea.

It is very easy for people to make the argument that genders are equal and therefore should do the same jobs. I just don't agree with that. As Fr. Corapi likes to say, the sexes are equal in dignity, but they are not the same. Equality and sameness are different things. Knowing what I know about the life of a submariner, I personally don't think that it is a job well-suited for a woman, IMHO.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='10 October 2009 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1255195945' post='1982422']
My father was a Navy submariner during the Cold War. I grew up around sub guys and on the crafts themselves and know the climate and the type of life that it requires...and under no circumstances would I ever advocate a mixed gender crew. If they want to have female submariners, they should have their own craft, but I'm not even sure that is necessarily a great idea.

It is very easy for people to make the argument that genders are equal and therefore should do the same jobs. I just don't agree with that. As Fr. Corapi likes to say, the sexes are equal in dignity, but they are not the same. Equality and sameness are different things. Knowing what I know about the life of a submariner, I personally don't think that it is a job well-suited for a woman, IMHO.
[/quote]
+1

[Saint Therese]

An all female sub crew would be awesome. Imagine the fighting spirit of a crew of women all having PMS at the same time!!!

[picchick]

I don't know about other people but when I have PMS (TMI I know...) I am in no mood to fight anything.

[rkwright]

[quote name='picchick' date='12 October 2009 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1255365554' post='1983971']
I don't know about other people but when I have PMS (TMI I know...) I am in no mood to fight anything.
[/quote]

[dominicansoul]

women should stay in the kitchen and serve meatball subs


(just kidding!)

[picchick]

careful...my subs pack a punch

[Slappo]

[quote name='picchick' date='12 October 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1255373379' post='1984030']
careful...my subs pack a punch
[/quote]

Extra spicy?

YUM!

[pat22]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='10 October 2009 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1255195945' post='1982422']
My father was a Navy submariner during the Cold War. I grew up around sub guys and on the crafts themselves and know the climate and the type of life that it requires...and under no circumstances would I ever advocate a mixed gender crew. If they want to have female submariners, they should have their own craft, but I'm not even sure that is necessarily a great idea.

It is very easy for people to make the argument that genders are equal and therefore should do the same jobs. I just don't agree with that. As Fr. Corapi likes to say, the sexes are equal in dignity, but they are not the same. Equality and sameness are different things. Knowing what I know about the life of a submariner, I personally don't think that it is a job well-suited for a woman, IMHO.
[/quote]
my granddad was an officer on a sub.

[Ave Maria Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Maximilianus' date='08 October 2009 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1255062516' post='1981496']
From my experience in the military it would not be a good idea to have women in subs. It's not that women can't perform with he same acumen as men, but putting men and women together will cause all kinds of extra interpersonal problems that will effect the morale and effectiveness of a unit, stuff that is not needed in times of warfighting.

Support units that have mixed units already have to handle the added issues of sexual harrassment, fraternization and all the social politics involved when co-workers get intimately involved. A unit/vessel whose primary task is combat doesn't need that headache.


...plus girls have cooties.
[/quote]


I, a female, currently serve aboard the finest warship in the world, a U.S. Navy guided missile destroyer--so know my perspective as I begin to write.

I'd first like to respond to the statement that "a unit/vessel whose primary task is combat" doesn't need the "headache" of a co-ed environment. The two classes of ships in the Navy that are most often engaged in combat (i.e. putting rounds down-range, intercepting pirate vessels, etc) are cruisers and destroyers, both of which have women and men serving aboard, both officers and enlisted personnel. When it comes to combat, submarines are not doing nearly as much actual combat these days, at least in the traditional sense. Don't get me wrong--their role is vital, each class of subs serving a very particular mission. But just know that the Navy's primary WARFIGHTING ships are integrated--and have been for a while now.

My fellow female sailors are some of the most driven, knowledgeable, and motivated warriors on the ship. Some are not. Some of the male sailors on my ship are incredible leaders and warriors; some are idiots and careless. It's all relative. It's impossible to judge a sailor just by their gender; I have seen the best and the worst from both men and women.

Please don't think that integrated ships go to sea and become these big scandalous sexual places just because both men and women serve onboard. I think that's a pretty unfair assumption for one to make. Are there issues, at times, with sexual harassment and promiscuity on integrated ships? Unfortunately, yes. But it's much more rare than the media portrays it to be. And if you think about it, the same happens in workplaces, in colleges--you name it. The problem is not the place (a ship, a combat zone, the military, etc)--the problem is our fallen nature.

One little way I personally try to combat the problem, rather, to prevent problems from even occurring, is to be an example to the young women on my ship, as I try to live a life of purity and prudence. Mentoring them, engaging them, bringing them the Gospel--not necessarily through words, but through the choices I make and the life I lead as a woman living for the Lord Jesus Christ. Does my desire for grace and virtue make me less of a warrior? Heck no! But it does make me more of a woman, more feminine, and therefore living out my military vocation, as a female, with more authenticity.

My sailors are professionals. They serve God, country, and shipmate proudly, male and female, and all make incredible sacrifices and serve relentlessly in the most tough, tense, and life-threatening situations. It's an honor to get to serve alongside the finest men AND women in the world.

---

As far as women on subs--it's for SECNAV to decide, and is quite literally beyond my paygrade. There's pros and cons, as with anything. Would I personally request/desire to serve on a sub? Honestly, no. But it has nothing to do with the fact that I am a woman. It's more because I like to watch sunsets and breathe salty air (not that nuclear reactors and purified air systems aren't cool).

If it happens, all it will require is increased mentorship and leadership. Luckily, our military will never run out of that.

St. Mary, Star of the Sea, pray for us!

Edited October 12, 2009 by Ave Maria Totus Tuus

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Ave Maria Totus Tuus' date='12 October 2009 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1255390886' post='1984159']


As far as women on subs--it's for SECNAV to decide, and is quite literally beyond my paygrade.
[/quote]
Ugh

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='Ave Maria Totus Tuus' date='12 October 2009 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1255390886' post='1984159']
I, a female, currently serve aboard the finest warship in the world...
[/quote]

Outstanding.

I stand by my post for reasons you yourself posted [quote]the problem is our fallen nature.[/quote]
[quote]I have seen the best and the worst from both men and women.[/quote]
I look at it from a unit leader's perspective. It will be much more efficient and expedient for me to command a group when I don't have to deal with those extra interpersonal issue.

This doesn't mean that I think the Navy should immediatley remove all female personnel from all vessels(warships or other) and relegate them to support roles or to all female ships. I don't think it's some kind of travesty, I just think it's not an ideal situation.


Justin86 used to be our resident Anchor Clanker. It was made evident in a thread dedicated to his absence he was sent on "vacation", I guess this makes you our new Anchor Clanker.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Maximilianus