Contraceptives In China

[OraProMe]

China's "One Child Policy" is the communist governments way of regulating population growth. Only 35% of the population is subject to the policy (rural areas, ethnic minorities etc. are exceptions). Tens of millions of the people subject to the One Child Policy are catholics. Failure to comply to the policy often results in forced abortion. So my question is: would it be permissable for Chinese Catholics to use contraception given that if they don't they're liable to face fines, punishment and even the abortion of their child?

[Archaeology cat]

I wouldn't think so. Two wrongs don't make a right, as they say. Especially since some forms of contraception (namely hormonal forms and the IUD) can result in an early abortion by allowing for fertilisation but not implantation. They could use NFP, since that does not seek to sterilise either parent (temporarily through a barrier or hormone, or permanently through surgery) and does not result in an early abortion, but simply identifies the most fertile times so they can abstain temporarily ([url="http://www.woomb.org/bom/trials/chinaLaunching.html"]the Chinese Ministry of Health has distributed info about Billings[/url] I don't know if they also promote sympto-thermal or other methods).

[CatherineM]

They'd have to track me down and kill me before I would comply with an abortion.

[Resurrexi]

It is never acceptable to use artificial contraception.

[Gregorius]

If the early martyrs could have the strength to choose to die rather than obey Roman law and worship the state deities, if I was in such a position as above I could at least accept a fine or imprisonment for refusal to kill a child and worship the "deity of the state."

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='12 October 2009 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1255305015' post='1983347']
They'd have to track me down and kill me before I would comply with an abortion.
[/quote]

[picchick]

The root of this "problem" is the one child policy. Among other things, it strips the people of their God given duty to "be fertile and multiply."
No one should tell another what to do when building a family. No one should tell another, "You are required to use this birth control." "You are required to have an abortion."

This is only one of the many reasons why I do not like Communist China.

[Sojourner]

In addition to the excellent points which have already been made, I would add that we can make a solid argument that accepting a contraceptive mentality is the forerunner of the one child policy in China, and of similar governmental actions in other countries. For Catholic parents to fight this mentality by joining in is self-defeating.

Consider, for example, the prophetic words of Pope Paul VI in [i]Humanae Vitae[/i], published in 1968 in response to calls from Catholics to allow for licit use of birth control:
[quote]Finally, careful consideration should be given to the danger of this power passing into the hands of those public authorities who care little for the precepts of the moral law. Who will blame a government which in its attempt to resolve the problems affecting an entire country resorts to the same measures as are regarded as lawful by married people in the solution of a particular family difficulty? Who will prevent public authorities from favoring those contraceptive methods which they consider more effective? Should they regard this as necessary, they may even impose their use on everyone. It could well happen, therefore, that when people, either individually or in family or social life, experience the inherent difficulties of the divine law and are determined to avoid them, they may give into the hands of public authorities the power to intervene in the most personal and intimate responsibility of husband and wife.[/quote]

Edited October 12, 2009 by Terra Firma

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Gregorius' date='11 October 2009 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1255316901' post='1983613']
If the early martyrs could have the strength to choose to die rather than obey Roman law and worship the state deities, if I was in such a position as above I could at least accept a fine or imprisonment for refusal to kill a child and worship the "deity of the state."
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
Action failed: You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[Slappo]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='11 October 2009 - 02:04 AM' timestamp='1255251850' post='1983011']
China's "One Child Policy" is the communist governments way of regulating population growth. Only 35% of the population is subject to the policy (rural areas, ethnic minorities etc. are exceptions). Tens of millions of the people subject to the One Child Policy are catholics. Failure to comply to the policy often results in forced abortion. So my question is: would it be permissable for Chinese Catholics to use contraception given that if they don't they're liable to face fines, punishment and even the abortion of their child?
[/quote]

Ora, where are you getting your statistics?

you say only 35% of the population is subject to it, rural area's etc are exceptions... but that's not true to my knowledge, and I've been there before.

Exceptions CAN be made for rural area's etc, but it isn't a "have as many children as you want" exception. It's "ok we'll let you have one more, but if you have a third we'll come and burn your house down and force you to get an abortion."

China has a population police that monitors these things. Also, I'm not sure about your tens of millions of Catholic's statistic either. China may be 1 billion plus people, but in ALL of Beijing China there are 7 church's not including those underground (which I don't think there is a surplus of).

[Holly3278]

Nope, you can't do a wrong to make a right. Can't do evil to bring about good. And besides that, many forms of contraception are abortifacient. In fact, I think all hormonal forms are.

[eagle_eye222001]

According to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#The_.22Four-Two-One.22_problem"]Wikipedia[/url], 35.9% are subject to the "one child" policy.

According to the [url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6726244.ece"]Times[/url]article,

[quote]
Urban parents are permitted to have two children if the husband and wife were only children. In rural areas, couples are allowed a second child if their first is a girl.[/quote]

[quote]For the first time in 30 years, officials in the country’s economic capital have urged eligible parents to plan for a second child. The move was prompted by the growing demographic imbalance in the city and fears that the younger generation will not be able to support the ageing population.[/quote]

Piecing some stuff together, it may very well be that only 35% is subject to the "one child only" policy since they have had the policy in effect for 30 years. So the number of people eligible for two would increase since 30 years is a long enough time to build up a bunch of single kid families and the second article points to the fact that China has a growing crisis of being unable to care for its elderly.

[picchick]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='12 October 2009 - 06:45 PM' timestamp='1255387532' post='1984132']
According to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#The_.22Four-Two-One.22_problem"]Wikipedia[/url], 35.9% are subject to the "one child" policy.

According to the [url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6726244.ece"]Times[/url]article,





Piecing some stuff together, it may very well be that only 35% is subject to the "one child only" policy since they have had the policy in effect for 30 years. So the number of people eligible for two would increase since 30 years is a long enough time to build up a bunch of single kid families and the second article points to the fact that China has a growing crisis of being unable to care for its elderly.
[/quote]

But once that happens China will change their policy.

Growing crisis of being unable to care for elderly? What is stopping them from euthanizing them? Nothing. Of course that is speculation but there is nothing stopping them. Do you really think that they are going to change a policy to cut down on population numbers to prolong the life of people?

Edited October 12, 2009 by picchick

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='picchick' date='12 October 2009 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1255388478' post='1984141']
But once that happens China will change their policy.

Growing crisis of being unable to care for elderly? What is stopping them from euthanizing them? Nothing. Of course that is speculation but there is nothing stopping them. Do you really think that they are going to change a policy to cut down on population numbers to prolong the life of people?
[/quote]

I am sure China will act in the interest of China. They haven't cared about human beings before, I doubt they'll start now.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Slappo' date='12 October 2009 - 12:52 PM' timestamp='1255369971' post='1984006']
Ora, where are you getting your statistics?

you say only 35% of the population is subject to it, rural area's etc are exceptions... but that's not true to my knowledge, and I've been there before.

Exceptions CAN be made for rural area's etc, but it isn't a "have as many children as you want" exception. It's "ok we'll let you have one more, but if you have a third we'll come and burn your house down and force you to get an abortion."

China has a population police that monitors these things. Also, I'm not sure about your tens of millions of Catholic's statistic either. China may be 1 billion plus people, but in ALL of Beijing China there are 7 church's not including those underground (which I don't think there is a surplus of).
[/quote]

My international politics text book said a third of the population are subject to the policy and wiki said something similar

I've read that the underground Church is actually much larger than the state run "Catholic" Church and there is a significant overlap between the two.

[tinytherese]

The one child policy is really hard on the families in China. So much pressure is put on the one child and they are expected to be successful so that they can take care of their parents. I remember in the past when one Catholic woman who went to China to teach english and evangelized there make a guest appearance on EWTN and she spoke on the negative affects of this policy. She had a student who had a nervous breakdown and had to be admited into a mental hospital. Apparentally, she wasn't able to get into graduate school which had meant so much to her mother. When her mother came to pick her up from the hospital the girl angrily accused her of never loving her.

[Slappo]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='12 October 2009 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1255392879' post='1984175']
My international politics text book said a third of the population are subject to the policy and wiki said something similar

I've read that the underground Church is actually much larger than the state run "Catholic" Church and there is a significant overlap between the two.
[/quote]

Really everyone is subject to the policy... except 65% have an exception to be able to have a second child. So maybe you can call it the 1-2 child policy act.

either way, those with an exception, in the normal course of non-contraceptive marriage without excessive use of NFP would have more than their family limit.


The significant overlap between underground and state run is because it is very grey and there are many churches now that are "underground" but the government approves of. The government says "yes you can do what you are doing... as long as you agree that we say yes you can do it."

Still, tens of millions of Catholics is not anywhere near what the guesses of Catholics including underground are at.

[quote]"In 2008 the official number is 20 million in the Official Protestant churches and 10 million in the Official Catholic Church. According to China Aid Association, Ye Xiaowen, the director of the government body which supervises all religions in China, said privately that the figure was indeed as much as 130 millions in early 2008.[20] The claim was denied by Mrs. Guo Wei, director of the Foreign Affairs Department in Beijing[citation needed]. Some bloggers had attributed the report to the official Xinhua News Agency, which denied having reported anything such.[12]. According to John Micklethwait "a conservative guess" (as at the end of 2008) "is that there are at least 65 million Protestants in China and 12 million Catholics"[31]"[/quote]

from wikipedia.

[pat22]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='11 October 2009 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1255305015' post='1983347']
They'd have to track me down and kill me before I would comply with an abortion.
[/quote]
thats the idea

[Sirklawd]

The short answer is that its wrong to let it pass that a government can force this policy to begin with. whether it be 35% of the population, 99% of the population, or 1% of the population.

The longer answer is that contraceptives are wrong whether there's a gun pointed at your head or not. They undermine the dignity of human beings and their purpose in life - to love fully and completely as God loves...and they do more damage to humanity than anything else.

as for China, this is a great book:
http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=5121

[Marie-Therese]

It's interesting, because China has unwittingly contracepted itself into a serious decline. Due to the one child policy, and the overwhelming attitude toward the value of male children as opposed to females, there now exists an enormous number of adult males who have very little chance of marriage, because the female to male ratio is so skewed. The population control of the Chinese government has, in effect, led to a domino effect that will cripple the Chinese population.