Salvation Outside The Catholic Church?

[Livin_the_MASS]

Sorry PhatCatholic,

Mods you can delete this thread.

God Bless
Jason

[Bruce S]

Jason's just a good Catholic Church zealot, we Protestants have been noticing them forever...grin.

He would be the one with the torch back in the middle ages, with ME on the woodpile.

Thank you Wycliffe, Huss, Calvin, and Luther, and Azusa street and the Holy Spirit protecting me, thank you.

Edited April 6, 2004 by Bruce S

[popestpiusx]

Burn baby burn!!

[Bruce S]

Good thing we enlisted the Germans to protect us, just as the Pope wants Swiss/Germans to protect HIM too, I guess the Italians learned what side WINS those battles where force is needed.

Grin.

[popestpiusx]

You got lucky. Had it not been for Fredrick's obstinance, Charles' bad decision, and Riechealeu's influence on France's decision to attack Austria instead of Germany...........

[Bruce S]

[quote]You got lucky. Had it not been for Fredrick's obstinance, Charles' bad decision, and Riechealeu's influence on France's decision to attack Austria instead of Germany........... [/quote]

I guess God was watching out for us, and He still is...

[popestpiusx]

Somebody was watching out for you, though I have my doubts that it was God. Had those men acted differently, the reformation could have been suppressed and the Church could have (and already was) reformed itself without having to react against the prots. There were abuses, to be sure, that gave some apparent credibility to the "reformers" (or revolutionaries as I prefer to call them). But the Church was resolving these issues. By separating themselves from the Mystical Body of Christ, they cut themselves off from the vessel of our Salvation.

[Bruce S]

[quote] God. Had those men acted differently, the reformation could have been suppressed and the Church could have (and already was) reformed itself without having to react against the prots.[/quote]

Yeah, right. And I have some swampland in Florida for sale too...

EVERY time some CATHOLIC DARES to question the AUTHORITY of the leadership, no matter how corrupt they are, they get slammed. History shows that over and over, the leaders of the Catholic Church are more interested in protecting their temporal POWER than Christianity. Look at the most recent example, the coverups of the sexual scandals. That one is playing out now in front of our eyes. If it were NOT for the laity and lawyers, NO change would have happened, just more protection of the clergy, and the same old same old. Now if you want to look at Ablerto Calvi, and the Vatican bank scandals, Banco Ambrosio, we have another one that shows the lengthts, including murder of a sitting Pope [ that one is interesting to say the least ] but that is hard for most to follow, since most can't understand, nor want to understand massive international financial issues.

[quote]By separating themselves from the Mystical Body of Christ, they cut themselves off from the vessel of our Salvation.[/quote]

So, the ones NOT doing corruption are cut off from salvation, and the corrupt ones were saved? Of course, NOT ONE corrupt member of the Catholic Church was excommunicated, just the uncorrupt ones were....

OK, that makes a lot of sense, NOT.

Edited April 6, 2004 by Bruce S

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 6 2004, 09:26 AM']
Yeah, right. And I have some swampland in Florida for sale too...

EVERY time some CATHOLIC DARES to question the AUTHORITY of the leadership, no matter how corrupt they are, they get slammed. History shows that over and over, the leaders of the Catholic Church are more interested in protecting their temporal POWER than Christianity. Look at the most recent example, the coverups of the sexual scandals. That one is playing out now in front of our eyes. If it were NOT for the laity and lawyers, NO change would have happened, just more protection of the clergy, and the same old same old. Now if you want to look at Ablerto Calvi, and the Vatican bank scandals, Banco Ambrosio, we have another one that shows the lengthts, including murder of a sitting Pope [ that one is interesting to say the least ] but that is hard for most to follow, since most can't understand, nor want to understand massive international financial issues.



So, the ones NOT doing corruption are cut off from salvation, and the corrupt ones were saved? Of course, NOT ONE corrupt member of the Catholic Church was excommunicated, just the uncorrupt ones were....

OK, that makes a lot of sense, NOT. [/quote]
How much you want for that swampland?

Look, the issue here is that you are not able to distinguish between what is and is not Church teaching. The Vatican Bank Scandal has nothing whatsoever to do with Church teaching. The scandals don't either, insofar as nothing was being taught. It was the failure (and a masive failure it was) on the part of the hierarchy to act to be sure. But how can you say that somehow the Church's teaching has been corrupted by this? The only thing affected in this case has been the Church's credibility in the public eye (you are a case in point).

And as to your final point: the fact of the matter is that the so called "reformers", while some perhaps had a couple of good points pertaining to abuses, did in fact corrupt the constant teaching of the Church with novelties never before seen in Church history. In so doing, they separated themselves from Holy Mother Church.
That is why they were excommunicated. Compare the writings of Erasmus, who was a true reformer during the same time period, with Luther, who was a revolutionary. There is a marked difference between the two and in fact Erasmus and Luther exchanged letters, which are very interesting.. Erasmus sought to reform many of the same abuses as Luther, but did so without corrupting a single doctrine. As a result, Erasmus contributed to a legitimate reform and Luther lead milions of souls away from the Church founded by Christ. But don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself. You will see a proper way of going about it, compared to the very wrong way.

[popestpiusx]

Jason, it looks like your thread is going to live on...

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]EVERY time some CATHOLIC DARES to question the AUTHORITY of the leadership, no matter how corrupt they are, they get slammed. History shows that over and over, the leaders of the Catholic Church are more interested in protecting their temporal POWER than Christianity. Look at the most recent example, the coverups of the sexual scandals. [/quote]

Bruce,

You talk about stuff you don't understand. Who are you to judge what the Church does or does not do.

Do you know Christ pick Judas for a reason. Probably not, so I'll explain it. To show that there will be those who are the most close to Christ and His Church that do betray Him. Sit back and watch partner, the gates of hell will not prevail, I don't care what happens or what you say we do wrong. The promise is from Christ Himself, be assured your little mission of downing us is for nothing my friend.

What do you mean worried about leadership! JPII has done nothing but preached love, "Defend the right to life from conception until natural death" More reverance to Our Lords True Presence in the Blessed Sacrament (The Holy Eucharist). Mary Our Mother "Contemplate the Face of Christ through the Holy Rosary." Think man Think!! Oh but wait, he's worried about his power? Come on give me a break!

Man your looking at things with wordly eyes. Open up your spiritual eyes and take a good hard look! Your little comments against THE CATHOLIC CHURCH are nothing but babble. They won't get you any where.

God Bless
Jason

[theculturewarrior]

It bothers me when protestants celebrate the "martyrs" of the reformation, and act like protestants had their hands clean. There were attrocities on both sides of the battlefield. Do you really think protestants never burned Catholics at the stake Bruce? Don't you think that's a somewhat narrow and insulting supposition?

[popestpiusx]

Queen Elizabeth (that *&#@%$ #@$%&) executed over three times more Catholics than Queen Mary did to prots. Thats three times more in one persecution than Mary did her entire reign. Priests who tried to continue to say Mass had their thumb and forefinger cut off so they could no longer say Mass. I have a letter by Zwingli here next to me advocating
the gutting and burning of Catholic Churches. Calvin, while over Geneva, was an absolute tyrant, having everyone who did not show up for Sunday Morning services arrested. King Edward VI was one of the bloodiest persecuters of the Catholic Church in Ireland and England. I could go on and on.

Edited April 6, 2004 by popestpiusx

[Jake Huether]

Okay,

For sure the last post will no doubt be edited. And it might have merrited a free trip to the Back alley.

Good point PSPX, but try to remember to love your enemies. Let's not name call.


God bless.

[XIX]

This topic is getting a lot of attention for a topic that is supposedly beaten into the ground.

Recent posts have become more vitriolic than necesary, though.

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[popestpiusx]

I fixed it. Sorry about that. I despise that woman. I hate it even more when they try to call her the virgin queen. First of all she was a *&$%#. Second, there is only one Virgin Queen, and it sure as hell was not Elizabeth.
Third, it is almost blasphemous to give Elizabeth that title.

That is why I posted what I did.

[Justified Saint]

Good point pius. I don't see how people with working consciences can boast of the "freedom" of the Reformation when the number one tool that spread the "reformed" gospel was the sword.

It truly is scandalizing and utterly offensive to revel in such a movement and create these kinds of double standards while completely ignoring the brutual crimes against humanity preached and practiced by the reformers.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Apr 6 2004, 11:55 AM'] Queen Elizabeth (that *&#@%$ #@$%&) executed over three times more Catholics than Queen Mary did to prots. [/quote]
Bloody Mary reigned as queen of England for a short five years. Elizabeth for 40. So Mary killed with twice the speed.....

Edited April 7, 2004 by RandomProddy

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Apr 7 2004, 12:58 AM'] Bloody Mary reigned as queen of England for a short five years. Elizabeth for 40. So Mary killed with twice the speed..... [/quote]
I was referring to one specific act of persecution by Elizabeth and comparing that with Mary's entire reign. Therefore what you said, while partially true is not relevant, or rather, does not answer my point.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Apr 6 2004, 01:55 PM'] Queen Elizabeth (that *&#@%$ #@$%&) executed over three times more Catholics than Queen Mary did to prots. Thats three times more in one persecution than Mary did her entire reign. Priests who tried to continue to say Mass had their thumb and forefinger cut off so they could no longer say Mass. I have a letter by Zwingli here next to me advocating
the gutting and burning of Catholic Churches. Calvin, while over Geneva, was an absolute tyrant, having everyone who did not show up for Sunday Morning services arrested. King Edward VI was one of the bloodiest persecuters of the Catholic Church in Ireland and England. I could go on and on. [/quote]
Sernd me some links please.