The Oedipus Complex

[Guest Servant of Divine]

[quote name='StColette' date='21 October 2009 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1256144421' post='1989038']
Is it from this thread, Nihil

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=91810&view=findpost&p=1810616
[/quote]

That just makes it more confusing in relation to the Oedipus Complex, you're basically confirming that Christ and His Mother were mystically espoused.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Servant of Divine' date='21 October 2009 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1256159018' post='1989164']
That just makes it more confusing in relation to the Oedipus Complex, you're basically confirming that Christ and His Mother were mystically espoused.
[/quote]
Can you define the Oedipus Complex in the way to which you are referring to it, since some of us have no idea what you mean?

I say in the way to which you are referring to it because I'm still not really sure exactly what the original question was.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[StColette]

[quote name='Servant of Divine' date='21 October 2009 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1256159018' post='1989164']
That just makes it more confusing in relation to the Oedipus Complex, you're basically confirming that Christ and His Mother were mystically espoused.
[/quote]

mystically/spiritually yes there is a tradition of their espousal because she is a model of the Church who is the Bride of Christ and she is also the Second Eve. Nuns and Sisters are spiritually espoused to Christ and priests are considered spiritually espoused to the Church and in a sense spiritually espoused to Mary. Priests, like all humankind, are considered the children of Mary, that doesn't mean that since they are her "adopted" children and are spiritually espoused to her that it qualifies as an Oedipus Complex.

I'm finding it difficult to understand how spiritual espousal is equivalent to an Oedipus Complex.

[StColette]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 October 2009 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1256159192' post='1989169']
Can you define the Oedipus Complex in the way to which you are referring to it, since some of us have no idea what you mean?

I say in the way to which you are referring to it because I'm still not really sure exactly what the original question was.
[/quote]

An Oedipus Complex by definition is the desire to possess the parent of the opposite sex (in the case of Oedipus it was his mother, although he didn't actually know it was his mother until after marrying her) and eliminate the parent of the opposite sex.

I think Mary and Christ's spiritual espousal cannot be viewed as a Oedipus complex for the simple fact that it does not fulfill the definition of an Oedipus Complex. Christ isn't trying to possess his mother and nor is he trying to get rid of God the Father or St. Joseph. So on both of those accounts, I fail to see how their spiritual or mystical espousal can be labeled an Oedipus Complex.

[Nihil Obstat]

I know the definition in theory, but don't see how it's related at all.

[StColette]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 October 2009 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1256160011' post='1989186']
I know the definition in theory, but don't see how it's related at all.
[/quote]

I don't either, because it doesn't fit the classical definition at all.

[StColette]

This looked interesting and addresses the spousal relationship as well, the priest agrees with my conclusion that Mary's role as spouse can be attached to each member of the Most Holy Trinity.

(2) Here it is appropriate to note that the name of Mother signifies the unique relation to the Person of the Son, while the name of Spouse signifies the relation with the entire Trinity (and thus with one or the other of the Persons by appropriation). Hence Bérulle calls Mary "Spouse of the Father," because they have in common the same Son: "Daughter and Spouse of the Father, Mother and servant of the Son and sanctuary of the Holy Spirit" (Troisième Elévation). Saint Francis of Assisi calls her "Spouse of the Spirit": "Daughter and servant of the Most High and Sovereign Heavenly Father, Mother of our most Holy Lord Jesus Christ, Spouse of the Holy Spirit" (Antiphon of the Psalms of the Mystery of Jesus). This title of Spouse of the Holy Spirit is the most classic, taken up in particular by Saint Louis-Marie de Montfort, by Paul VI (Marialis Cultus #26) and by John Paul II (Redemptoris Mater #26). It could be said that Mary is the Spouse of her Son, without there being any impropriety. Just as the Church is the Mother of Jesus with Mary, so also Mary is the Spouse of Jesus with the Church. The all-beautiful Spouse of the Song of Songs is inseparably Mary and the Church. [b]The Marian interpretation of the Song of Songs, which is traditional, identifies Mary with the Spouse of Christ, which is theologically exact, since Mary is the perfect image of the Church, the Spouse of Jesus without spot or blemish. One must remember in this regard that if the Name of the Son expresses the property of a Divine Person, the Name of Spouse is in reality common to the entire Trinity. In God, there is eternally a Father and a Son, and not a Husband and a Wife. The divine name of Spouse, which characterizes the relation between God and the creature as a relation of Love, can also be legitimately appropriated to each of the three Persons. It is especially appropriated to the Son because of the Incarnation, but it can justly be appropriated to the Father and to the Spirit, for truly, the three Persons are only one Spouse, and not three Spouses. The Trinitarian communion is always virginal; it is the source of unprecedented divine-human relations, radically new by comparison with simple, natural human relations. [/b]Thus, for Saint Francis, every person who lives in charity is at the same time spouse and sister and mother of Jesus, so that Jesus is truly his Spouse and his Brother and his Child (Letter to the faithful, first version), such an expression, which Saint Clare applies most particularly to a woman who is a consecrated virgin (first Letter to Agnes of Prague), applies eminently to Mary. One can still add that for Saint Francis, the title of Spouse of the Holy Spirit is not reserved to Mary; he also applies it to Clare and to her sisters, when he writes to them: "you have espoused the Holy Spirit in choosing to live according to the perfection of the holy Gospel" (Form of Life, to Saint Clare). Here again, the lived theology of the saints sheds a living light on the mystery of the virginal "Bridehood" and Motherhood of Mary and of the Church.

I found the bold part interesting.

http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=264&Itemid=580&limitstart=2

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 October 2009 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1256159192' post='1989169']...
I say in the way to which you are referring to it because I'm still not really sure exactly what the original question was.
[/quote]
Is Marian doctrine and devotion shaped by the sublimation of unconscious incestuous desires? I believe the main implication in the question is that Catholic doctrine - at least in the Marian aspect - is sexually perverse in some way. Perhaps more generally that repressed sexual desires (of a taboo nature) are in some ways essential to the aetiology of the "Jesus narrative" as recorded in the Scriptures.

That's how I understand the question-assertion at least. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Guest Servant of Divine]

So, to summarise, the Song of Songs is about Mary and Jesus? If you use that interpretation of the Song, then it really is the defination of the Oedipus Complex.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Servant of Divine' date='21 October 2009 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1256185942' post='1989461']
So, to summarise, the Song of Songs is about Mary and Jesus? If you use that interpretation of the Song, then it really is the defination of the Oedipus Complex.
[/quote]
Oediupus complex is a disorder. Mary and her relationship to Jesus is part of the fabric of reality. The two don't quite compare.
It seems like a bit of an anachronism.

[Guest Servant of Divine]

I don't think the Blessed Virgin Mother in the Song of Songs is "the fabric of reality."

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Servant of Divine' date='22 October 2009 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1256191403' post='1989520']
I don't think the Blessed Virgin Mother in the Song of Songs is "the fabric of reality."
[/quote]
Her role as the Mother of God certainly is, and the two are intrinsically related.

[Guest Servant of Divine]

If the Blessed Mother were the woman described in the Song of Songs, then the Doctrine on her Holy and Perpetual purity is out the window. If the man in the Song in Christ then it is indeed the Oedipus Complex, moreso even that the story of King Oedipus and Queen Jocasta.

[StColette]

[quote name='Servant of Divine' date='22 October 2009 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1256194047' post='1989551']
If the Blessed Mother were the woman described in the Song of Songs, then the Doctrine on her Holy and Perpetual purity is out the window. If the man in the Song in Christ then it is indeed the Oedipus Complex, moreso even that the story of King Oedipus and Queen Jocasta.
[/quote]

No, it would not be out the window. You need to read about Biblical exegesis and the different senses of Scripture. There is both a Literal and a Spiritual sense. Go read about those senses in Dei Verbum and then read Song of Songs in light of Dei Verbum. You must also keep in mind that much of the language in Song of Songs has a different meaning than what seems to be the obvious. A good commentary would help you with this. Btw, the woman spoken of in Song of Songs is also considered to be the Church, this doesn't mean that she isn't the Spotless, Virginal Bride of Christ.

[StColette]

I'd be interested to see your proof for accusing Christ of having an Oedipus Complex toward His Mother. That's a very dangerous claim. Please provide proof and citation of your theory. I'd be very interested to see where proof of Christ sexually desiring His Mother and trying to eliminate his Father would be found.

[Guest Servant of Divine]

[quote name='StColette' date='22 October 2009 - 08:41 AM' timestamp='1256215265' post='1989604']
Btw, the woman spoken of in Song of Songs is also considered to be the Church, this doesn't mean that she isn't the Spotless, Virginal Bride of Christ.
[/quote]

Well, up there you just said it was the Virgin Mary.

[StColette]

[quote name='Servant of Divine' date='22 October 2009 - 10:37 AM' timestamp='1256222260' post='1989620']
Well, up there you just said it was the Virgin Mary.
[/quote]

Correct, if you read the sentence that you quoted it reads "is also considered" meaning their are multiple meanings.

Read Dei Verbum and you'll have a better understanding of the senses of Scripture. The Old Testament has both a literal sense and a spiritual sense. In some cases there can be multiple spiritual senses to a verse, but always one literal. The Literal is often associated with the historical context of the verse. For example, Isaiah speaks about Emmanuel. It speaks about an actual/literal birth of a child born from a maiden during that time period. However, the spiritual sense of that verse is often a reference to the virgin birth of Christ. Again read Dei Verbum.

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html"]Dei Verbum - Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation[/url]

[Guest Servant of Divine]

So "spiritually" the Holy Virgin did the stuff descibed in the Song of Songs?

[StColette]

[quote name='Servant of Divine' date='22 October 2009 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1256226282' post='1989637']
So "spiritually" the Holy Virgin did the stuff descibed in the Song of Songs?
[/quote]

Read Dei Verbum and a Catholic Commentary on Song of Songs. I've never done a full exegesis on the Song of Songs (which my last one I did on Gen. 3:15 (only 1 verse) took me 4 months and was 30 pages long), so I can't give you what the Church's interpretation of all of Song of Songs is without a lot of extensive research and time. Some verses will apply to the Blessed Virgin, some to the Church, some to Christians as a whole. We see this a lot in Scripture. For instance, Rev. 11 & 12 certain verses refer to Mary, certain ones to the Church, and still others to Israel. Also certain phrases or words in Song of Songs such as "kisses" can mean different things in the Hebrew language. I know the Hebrew word for bed or bedchamber can also be defined as womb, that's just one example of how a Hebrew word or phrase can hold multiple meanings depending on what sense you're referring to.

While you're at it, please respond to this

[quote]I'd be interested to see your proof for accusing Christ of having an Oedipus Complex toward His Mother. That's a very dangerous claim. Please provide proof and citation of your theory. I'd be very interested to see where proof of Christ sexually desiring His Mother and trying to eliminate his Father would be found.[/quote]

You've yet to address this. Once you've addressed this sufficiently, I'll continue the conversation.

[Lilllabettt]

What wierdness. No, Jesus doesn't have any psychological problems.

Sometimes I think we as people have dirty minds and that makes us read into things. Like I've heard that the centurion who was not worthy to have Jesus come into his house said so because he was having a homosexual relationship with his servant. When Jesus healed him He was therefore giving a thumbs up to homosexual relationships.

Um, noooooo.