Nihil Obstat Posted October 25, 2009 Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='25 October 2009 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1256508677' post='1991195'] You wouldn't know if he is indeed the Anti-Christ. Heck, I'm sure many people thought Hitler was the anti-Christ, but he wasn't. You can judge the actions as being evil, but not the person. Jim [/quote] I'm pretty sure that when it actually happens, we'll know. When did I ever say to judge the person rather than his actions? I wish you wouldn't accuse me of that.
JimR-OCDS Posted October 25, 2009 Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 October 2009 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1256508620' post='1991194'] By left wing do you mean pro abortion, pro gay 'marriage' and pro birth control? [/quote] Not necessarily. You do know that fundamentalist considered Pope John Paul II, left-wing. Heck, anyone who shows compassion, opposes wars and violence, would be consider left-wing, by many so-called Christian conservatives. Jim
Nihil Obstat Posted October 25, 2009 Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='25 October 2009 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1256508855' post='1991198'] Not necessarily. You do know that fundamentalist considered Pope John Paul II, left-wing. Heck, anyone who shows compassion, opposes wars and violence, would be consider left-wing, by many so-called Christian conservatives. Jim [/quote] You should define how you're using terms. Left wing can mean a lot of different things, many of which are outright against Church teachings.
mortify Posted October 25, 2009 Author Posted October 25, 2009 Jim, what's your issue with explaining who the Antichrist will be?
Vincent Vega Posted October 25, 2009 Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='24 October 2009 - 01:12 PM' timestamp='1256404348' post='1990693'] To suggest that anyone, is or might be the anti-christ, only helps to serve the true Anti-Christ, who is Satan. [/quote] Satan is not the Anti-Christ. He may be [i]an[/i] anti-Christ, but the Anti-Christ is/will be an entirely separate entity.
JimR-OCDS Posted October 25, 2009 Posted October 25, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='25 October 2009 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1256510528' post='1991212'] Satan is not the Anti-Christ. He may be [i]an[/i] anti-Christ, but the Anti-Christ is/will be an entirely separate entity. [/quote] Satan is the ultimate Anti-Christ. Whoever serves his cause, is merely his agent. Jim
JimR-OCDS Posted October 25, 2009 Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) There have been many ideas about the anti-Christ over the centuries. Some thought that Nero was him. Others fingered various figureheads throughout history. Here's whats in the online version of the Catholic Encyclopedia. <H2 id=section1>Biblical meaning of the word</H2> The word [i]Antichrist[/i] occurs only in the Johannine Epistles; but there are so-called real parallelisms to these occurrences in the Apocalypse, in the Pauline Epistles, and less explicit ones in the Gospels and the Book of Daniel. <H3 id=A>In the Johannine epistles</H3> St. John supposes in his Epistles that the early Christians are acquainted with the teaching concerning the coming of Antichrist. "You have heard that Antichrist cometh" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1jo002.htm#vrs18"]1 John 2:18[/url]); "This is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1jo004.htm#vrs3"]1 John 4:3[/url]). Though the Apostle speaks of several Antichrists, he distinguishes between the many and the one principal agent: "Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1jo002.htm#vrs18"]1 John 2:18[/url]). Again, the writer outlines the character and work of Antichrist: "They went out from us, but they were not of us" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1jo002.htm#vrs19"]1 John 2:19[/url]); "Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denies the Father, and the Son" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1jo002.htm#vrs22"]1 John 2:22[/url]); "And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God; and this is Antichrist" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1jo004.htm#vrs3"]1 John 4:3[/url]); "For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an Antichrist" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/2jo001.htm#vrs7"]2 John 7[/url]). Also the time, the Apostle places the coming of Antichrist at "the last hour" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1jo002.htm#vrs18"]1 John 2:18[/url]); again he maintains that "he is now already in the world" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1jo004.htm#vrs3"]1 John 4:3[/url]). <H3 id=B>In the Apocalypse</H3> Nearly all commentators find Antichrist mentioned in the Apocalypse, but they do not agree as to the particular chapter of the Book in which the mention occurs. Some point to the "beast" of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rev011.htm"]11:7[/url], others to the "red dragon" of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rev012.htm"]Chapter 12[/url], others again to the beast "having seven heads and ten horns" of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rev013.htm"]13, sqq.[/url], while many scholars identify Antichrist with the beast which had "two horns, like a lamb" and spoke "as a dragon" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rev013.htm"]13:11, sqq.[/url]), or with the scarlet-coloured beast "having seven heads and ten horns" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rev017.htm"]17[/url]), or, finally, with Satan "loosed out of his prison," and seducing the nations ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rev020.htm"]20:7, sqq.[/url]). A detailed discussion of the reasons for and against each of these opinions would be out of place here. <H3 id=C>In the Pauline epistles</H3> St. John supposes that the doctrine concerning the coming of Antichrist is already known to his readers; many commentators believe that it had become known in the Church through the writings of St. Paul. St. John urged against the heretics of his time that those who denied the mystery of the Incarnation were faint images of the future great Antichrist. The latter is described more fully in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/2th002.htm"]2 Thessalonians 2:3, sqq., 7-10[/url]. In the Church of Thessalonica disturbances had occurred on account of the belief that the second coming of Jesus Christ was imminent. This impression was owing partly to a misunderstanding of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1th004.htm"]1 Thessalonians 4:15, sqq.[/url], partly to the machinations of deceivers. It was with a view of remedying these disorders that St. Paul wrote his Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, inserting especially [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/2th003.htm"]2:3-10[/url]. The Pauline doctrine is this: "the day of the Lord" will be preceded by "a revolt", and the revelation of the "man of sin." The latter will sit in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God; he will work signs and lying wonders by the power of Satan; he will seduce those who received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved; but the Lord Jesus shall kill him with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy him with the brightness of His coming. As to the time, "the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way." Briefly, the "day of the Lord" will be preceded by the "man of sin" known in the Johannine Epistles as Antichrist; the "man of sin" is preceded by "a revolt," or a great apostasy; this apostasy is the outcome of the "mystery of iniquity" which already "worketh", and which, according to St. John, shows itself here and there by faint types of Antichrist. The Apostle gives three stages in the evolution of evil: the leaven of iniquity, the great apostasy, and the man of sin. But he adds a clause calculated to determine the time of the main event more accurately; he describes something first as a thing ([i]to datechon[/i]), then as a person ([i]ho katechon[/i]), preventing the occurrence of the main event: "Only he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way." We can here only enumerate the principal opinions as to the meaning of this clause without discussing their value: [list][*]The impediment of the main event is "the man of sin"; the main event is the second coming of the Lord (Grimm, Simar).[*]The impediment is the Roman Empire; the main event impeded is the "man of sin" (most Latin Fathers and later interpreters)[*]The Apostle referred to persons and events of his own time; the [i]katechon[/i] and the "man of sin" are variously identified with the Emperors Caligula, Titus, Nero, Claudius, etc. (Protestant theologians living after the seventeenth century).[*]The Apostle refers immediately to contemporary men and events, which are, however, types of the eschatological [i]katechon[/i], "man of sin", and day of the Lord; the destruction of Jerusalem, e.g., is the type of the Lord's second coming, etc. (Döllinger).[/list] Before leaving the Pauline doctrine of Antichrist, we may ask ourselves, whence did the Apostle derive his teaching? Here again we meet with various answers. [list][*]St. Paul expresses merely his own view based on the Jewish tradition and the imagery of the Prophets Daniel and Ezekiel. This view has been advocated by several Protestant writers.[*]The Apostle expresses the impression produced on the early Church by the eschatological teaching of Jesus Christ. This opinion is expressed by Döllinger.[*]St. Paul derived his doctrine concerning Antichrist from the words of Christ, the prophecy of Daniel, and the contemporary events. This opinion, too, is expressed by Döllinger.[*]The Apostle uttered a prophecy received through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Catholic interpreters have generally adhered to this opinion.[/list][url="http://newadvent.org/cathen/01559a.htm"]http://newadvent.org/cathen/01559a.htm[/url] My point is, you travel down a dangerous path, when you attemp to accuse anyone of being the Anti-Christ. My guess is the Anti-Christ, if he is indeed a real person that will come into the world, rather than just a movement, he will probably first proclaim himself to be a Christian. Jim Edited October 25, 2009 by JimR-OCDS
mortify Posted October 27, 2009 Author Posted October 27, 2009 (edited) [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='25 October 2009 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1256512398' post='1991216'] Satan is the ultimate Anti-Christ. Whoever serves his cause, is merely his agent. Jim [/quote] The reason why Satan will not be the Antichrist is because he does not have the power to incarnate as a human being. Edited October 27, 2009 by mortify
mortify Posted October 27, 2009 Author Posted October 27, 2009 (edited) [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='25 October 2009 - 07:17 PM' timestamp='1256512646' post='1991218'] There have been many ideas about the anti-Christ over the centuries. Some thought that Nero was him. Others fingered various figureheads throughout history.[/quote] Nero et al. represent types of the Antichrist. [quote]My point is, you travel down a dangerous path, when you attemp to accuse anyone of being the Anti-Christ.[/quote] True, but that's not what we're doing. [quote]My guess is the Anti-Christ, if he is indeed a real person that will come into the world, rather than just a movement, he will probably first proclaim himself to be a Christian.[/quote] Is there any reason why saying he will be Christian is less politically incorrect than saying he will be Jewish? Edited October 27, 2009 by mortify
Nihil Obstat Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='mortify' date='26 October 2009 - 10:28 PM' timestamp='1256614117' post='1991888'] Is there any reason why saying he will be Christian is less politically incorrect than saying he will be Jewish? [/quote] In my own opinion like I stated above, it has a certain terrifying dramatic irony that I don't think satan can pass up. Haha. On a more somber note, it's the same as how he loves to mock our Church through his followers, eg. the black Mass.
JimR-OCDS Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 (edited) [quote name='mortify' date='27 October 2009 - 12:28 AM' timestamp='1256614117' post='1991888'] Nero et al. represent types of the Antichrist. True, but that's not what we're doing. Is there any reason why saying he will be Christian is less politically incorrect than saying he will be Jewish? [/quote] Because the Jews have been targets of hatred for so many centuries, that identifying them as the group where the Anti-Christ will come from, is offensive, and it also feeds those bigots who are on the fringe. We don't need to fuel the fire. Jim Edited October 27, 2009 by JimR-OCDS
Nihil Obstat Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='27 October 2009 - 08:42 AM' timestamp='1256650950' post='1992065'] Because the Jews have been targets of hatred for so many centuries, that identifying them as the group where the Anti-Christ will come from, is offensive, and it also feeds those bigots who are on the fringe. We don't need to fuel the fire. Jim [/quote] It just occurred to me today that the anti-Christ may very well choose to identify himself with some minority group, for example Jewish, homosexual, or anything else that can be identified, so that he can claim discrimination to silence those who oppose him.
Jaime Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='25 October 2009 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1256508677' post='1991195'] You wouldn't know if he is indeed the Anti-Christ. Heck, I'm sure many people thought Hitler was the anti-Christ, but he wasn't. You can judge the actions as being evil, but not the person. Jim [/quote] Wow that's some egg on the face of those who thought that about Hitler! I can imagine the banter at parties "You see Dave over there?" "yeah?" "He actually thought that because Hitler tried to wipe out God's chosen people and take over the world, that he was the anti-christ" "HAHAHAHAHA WHAT AN IDIOT! " Nero was the anti-christ that John was talking about. But since God is pretty awesome, scripture has the capacity to be 100% true for the time it was written and be 100% true for a future time as well. I personally believe that if a person goes to confession monthly, prays the rosary daily and attends mass, if the anti-christ shows up, (s)he will have no problem recognizing him.
mortify Posted October 27, 2009 Author Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='27 October 2009 - 11:14 AM' timestamp='1256656476' post='1992088'] Nero was the anti-christ that John was talking about.[/quote] Nero was not the Antichrist St John was referring to, if he were Christ would have returned by now. Many a person in history was a foreshadowing of the Antichrist, and Nero was one of them.
mortify Posted October 27, 2009 Author Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='27 October 2009 - 09:42 AM' timestamp='1256650950' post='1992065'] Because the Jews have been targets of hatred for so many centuries, that identifying them as the group where the Anti-Christ will come from, is offensive, and it also feeds those bigots who are on the fringe. We don't need to fuel the fire. Jim [/quote] Well Jim, I agree it might require some caution and charity, but we should not be silent just because it will offend. The truth was offensive two thousand years ago, and it will be just as offensive today.
dominicansoul Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 I've often thought the anti-Christ will be the one that the Jews proclaim as the Messiah, since they are still waiting for the Messiah to come into the world...and once they do, the rest of the world will follow suit. Only a chosen few who know God and know that Jesus IS LORD won't be fooled. The rest will be taken up in the spirit of the Anti-Christ, and follow him to their own destruction. I can see how easy this is, as many people follow celebrity rather than substance. I hardly think that saying such a thing makes me an anti-Semite. Expressing probable situations within a reality doesn't make one prejudiced against a certain group.
Winchester Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='25 October 2009 - 06:14 PM' timestamp='1256508855' post='1991198'] Heck, anyone who shows compassion, opposes wars and violence, would be consider left-wing, by many so-called Christian conservatives. Jim [/quote] Gee, you're easy to read.
Winchester Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='mortify' date='27 October 2009 - 11:27 AM' timestamp='1256657229' post='1992089'] Nero was not the Antichrist St John was referring to, if he were Christ would have returned by now. Many a person in history was a foreshadowing of the Antichrist, and Nero was one of them. [/quote] You didn't understand what hot stuff wrote; he's right.
JimR-OCDS Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 (edited) [quote name='mortify' date='27 October 2009 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1256657354' post='1992091'] Well Jim, I agree it might require some caution and charity, but we should not be silent just because it will offend. The truth was offensive two thousand years ago, and it will be just as offensive today. [/quote] But what truth? Is the Anti-Christ going to be Jewish? Is he going to be the Pope? Its all conjecture, and can lead to dangerous ways of looking at people. There will always be idiots in the world, looking for some one to scapegoat. Lets not help them. Jim Edited October 27, 2009 by JimR-OCDS
Winchester Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='27 October 2009 - 12:42 PM' timestamp='1256661775' post='1992106'] But what truth? Is the Anti-Christ going to be Jewish? Is he going to be the Pope? Its all conjecture, and can lead to dangerous ways of looking at people. There will always be idiots in the world, looking for some one to scapegoat. Lets not help them. Jim [/quote] In the title, perhaps you noticed the word "might"? It indicates it's a possibility.
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