New Prostitution Poll

[Resurrexi]

. . .

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Nihil Obstat]

Why tolerate sin if there are other options available?

[kafka]

one poll was enough man. It isnt that difficult of a question:

Deuteronomy
{23:17} There shall be no prostitutes among the daughters of Israel, nor anyone among the sons
of Israel who visits a prostitute.
{23:18} You shall not offer money from a prostitute, nor the price of a dog, in the house of the
Lord your God, no matter what you may have vowed. For both of these are an abomination with
the Lord your God.

Edited July 3, 2009 by kafka

[Resurrexi]

"I answer that, Human government is derived from the Divine government, and should imitate it. Now although God is all-powerful and supremely good, nevertheless He allows certain evils to take place in the universe, which He might prevent, lest, without them, greater goods might be forfeited, or greater evils ensue. Accordingly in human government also, those who are in authority, rightly tolerate certain evils, lest certain goods be lost, or certain greater evils be incurred: thus Augustine says (De Ordine ii, 4): 'If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust.'" (St. Thomas Aquinas: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3010.htm#article11"]Summa Theologiæ II-II, Q. 10, Art. 11[/url])

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

I think it important to keep in mind that the statement from St. Augustine "'If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust," is a very important statement coming from a person who had such strong views on sexual sins.

[kafka]

I agree a government does have to wisely tolerate some small evils, however prostitution is a grave sin.

I disagree with Augustine here. His logic is unsound.

'If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust.'

lust is a concupiscence. It is a remnant of original sin tending the body toward sin. It will exist regardless of whether or not prostitution exists. So making prostitution unavailable does not convulse it, rather the opposite is true. Legal toleration would make it a new occasion of grave sin for the tendency of lust to ensnare a soul.

Edited July 3, 2009 by kafka

[Resurrexi]

I think to decide the answer to this poll, it is also necessary to look at this to make a decision:

"It is necessary, then, to appeal to the spiritual and moral capacities of the human person and to the permanent need for his inner conversion, so as to obtain social changes that will really serve him. The acknowledged priority of the conversion of heart in no way eliminates but on the contrary imposes the obligation of bringing the appropriate remedies to institutions and living conditions when they are an inducement to sin, so that they conform to the norms of justice and advance the good rather than hinder it." ([url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1888.htm"][i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], no. 1888[/url])

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[kafka]

I dont see how that is relevant.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kafka' post='1908543' date='Jul 2 2009, 08:11 PM']I agree a government does have to wisely tolerate some small evils, however prostitution is a grave sin.[/quote]

"Concubinage and prostitution do not differ specifically from fornication, but since they imply a proximate occasion of sin and readiness to sin, they must be indicated [in confession]" (Fr. Heribert Jone: [i]Moral Theology[/i], p. 147 [imprimatur: John. J. Wright, D.D., Bishop of Pittsburgh; December 8, 1961])

Do you think that all fornication should be illegal?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kafka' post='1908546' date='Jul 2 2009, 08:18 PM']I dont see how that is relevant.[/quote]

Prostitution would probably be an "institution that is an inducement to sin".

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[kafka]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908547' date='Jul 2 2009, 09:19 PM']"Concubinage and prostitution do not differ specifically from fornication, but since they imply a proximate occasion of sin and readiness to sin, they must be indicated [in confession]" (Fr. Heribert Jone: [i]Moral Theology[/i], p. 147 [imprimatur: John. J. Wright, D.D., Bishop of Pittsburgh; December 8, 1961])

Do you think that all fornication should be illegal?[/quote]
are you being didactic here?

You should be able to answer this on your own.

[Resurrexi]

I am thinking through this issue.

One one hand, we have Doctors of the Church who, while clearly condemning prostitution as a grave sin, think that it should be tolerated for the sake of greater goods and to avoid greater evils.

On the other hand, we have an Ecumenical Council that states, "[L]et the laity so remedy the institutions and conditions of the world when the latter are an inducement to sin, that these may be conformed to the norms of justice [. . .]" (Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, [i]Lumen Gentium[/i], 36 § 3).

We also have to look at the fact that prostitution does is not specifically different from regular fornication except that prostitution is a near occasion to sin and shows that one is ready to sin. Perhaps some think that all fornication should be illegal, but I think greater harm than good would come of that.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Nihil Obstat]

Let's look at it more practically.
What greater evils will result by forbidding prostitution? Paying for adultury [[i]edit: by this I meant of course, fornication. My mistake[/i]...] is a pretty grave sin to begin with. It would take a very very great evil to outweigh that.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[Resurrexi]

There is a huge difference between fornication and adultery.

Married women obviously should not be prostitutes, and married men should have no reason to violate the Sixth Commandment with a prostitute.

[Nihil Obstat]

Sorry. I meant paying for fornication. Now you can get to my post.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1908555' date='Jul 2 2009, 08:41 PM']Let's look at it more practically.
What greater evils will result by forbidding prostitution? Paying for adultury [[i]edit: by this I meant of course, fornication. My mistake[/i]...] is a pretty grave sin to begin with. It would take a very very great evil to outweigh that.[/quote]

While it is true that prostitution "does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure" ([i]CCC[/i], no. 2355), the same can often be said of regular fornication.

Do you think that all fornication should be made illegal, and that all fornicators should be punished by the state?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908564' date='Jul 2 2009, 08:57 PM']While it is true that prostitution "does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure" ([i]CCC[/i], no. 2355), the same can often be said of regular fornication.

Do you think that all fornication should be made illegal, and that all fornicators should be punished by the state?[/quote]
No I don't think so, not because I approve of it, but because I think there's a degree of difference between legislating about fornication and legislating about prostitution. I'm not quite intelligent enough to go over why I think so, but at the end of the day, I think the State has the right (therefore the obligation) to make laws against prosititution, but not the right to legislate against fornication.
Still, you didn't answer my question. Practically speaking, what greater evils may result from legislating (or enforcing more strongly) against prostitition?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1908559' date='Jul 2 2009, 08:45 PM']Sorry. I meant paying for fornication. Now you can get to my post. [/quote]

There are actually many goods that could come from the legalization of prostitution.

If prostitution were legalized, it would be easier for men to avoid sinning with honorable women.

Also, more women might remain virgins before they married.

Prostitutes might be able to avoid drugs and violence, and the condition of their life might improve if prostitution were not associated with illegal activity.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908567' date='Jul 2 2009, 08:04 PM']Prostitutes might be able to avoid drugs and violence either, and the condition of their life might improve if prostitution were not associated with illegal activity.[/quote]

This is one of the reasons why I almost support the legalization of prostitution.

Edited July 3, 2009 by T-Bone _

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908567' date='Jul 2 2009, 09:04 PM']There are actually many goods that could come from the legalization of prostitution.

If prostitution were legalized, it would be easier for men to avoid sinning with honorable women.

Also, more women might remain virgins before they married.

Prostitutes might be able to avoid drugs and violence either, and the condition of their life might improve if prostitution were not associated with illegal activity.[/quote]
Sinning with a dishonourable woman is better than sinning with an honourable one?
The difference between honourable and dishonourable is almost certainly a false distinction. We're all sinners, and saying that the state of an 'honourable woman's' soul is somehow more valuable because it isn't in a state of sin is not the right way to look at it. It's the dishonourable ones that we need to reach to even more strongly.

In terms of avoiding drugs and violence, there are many programs that are dedicated to just that. Without making prostitution legal. There will be violence and coercion whether or not it's legal- don't fool yourself. There's significant amounts of that in the porn industry too, and that's been fully legal for ages.