New Prostitution Poll

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1908571' date='Jul 2 2009, 09:10 PM']Sinning with a dishonourable woman is better than sinning with an honourable one?
The difference between honourable and dishonourable is almost certainly a false distinction. We're all sinners, and saying that the state of an 'honourable woman's' soul is somehow more valuable because it isn't in a state of sin is not the right way to look at it. It's the dishonourable ones that we need to reach to even more strongly.[/quote]

Morally speaking, it is certainly no better to commit fornication with a dishonorable woman than with an honorable woman.

However, there a good name is an invaluable possession. By sinning with an honorable woman, the man could cause her to loose her good name, while the prostitute does not have a good name to loose.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908584' date='Jul 2 2009, 09:21 PM']Morally speaking, it is certainly no better to commit fornication with a dishonorable woman than with an honorable woman.

However, there a good name is an invaluable possession. By sinning with an honorable woman, the man could cause her to loose her good name, while the prostitute does not have a good name to loose.[/quote]
A reputation is pretty limited in its usefulness. Humility is more valuable, but that's neither here nor there.
In terms of the man's soul, it's neither better nor worse. In terms of the woman's soul, it's a matter of which one? Is it better for a dishonourable woman to sin more, or an honourable one to sin for the first time? The answer is neither.
Some people would argue that Mary Magdalen was a prostitute. I don't know if I buy into that or not, but let's assume she was. There is perfect evidence of the soul of a sinner which was every bit as beautiful and precious as the soul of a woman who lived in outward honour.
This line of reasoning is flawed, IMO. The soul of a prostitute is worth exactly the same as the soul of a good woman, therefore each should be led away from sin with the same forcefulness.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1908587' date='Jul 2 2009, 09:24 PM']A reputation is pretty limited in its usefulness. Humility is more valuable, but that's neither here nor there.
In terms of the man's soul, it's neither better nor worse. In terms of the woman's soul, it's a matter of which one? Is it better for a dishonourable woman to sin more, or an honourable one to sin for the first time? The answer is neither.
Some people would argue that Mary Magdalen was a prostitute. I don't know if I buy into that or not, but let's assume she was. There is perfect evidence of the soul of a sinner which was every bit as beautiful and precious as the soul of a woman who lived in outward honour.
This line of reasoning is flawed, IMO. The soul of a prostitute is worth exactly the same as the soul of a good woman, therefore each should be led away from sin with the same forcefulness.[/quote]

I am of the opinion that it would be more beneficial to society to have the whores in the brothels than in every high school.

[kafka]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908597' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:39 PM']I am of the opinion that it would be more beneficial to society to have the whores in the brothels than in every high school.

[/quote]

There is so much severe moral decadence in society now that trying to apply abstract moral/ethical principles to the legal system in the current climate is ludicrous.

Edited July 3, 2009 by kafka

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908597' date='Jul 2 2009, 09:39 PM']I am of the opinion that it would be more beneficial to society to have the whores in the brothels than in every high school.

[/quote]
I don't see how that has to do with what I said. Could you go over your line of reasoning?

[Gregorius]

Oh Rex. Always looking for a fight.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908567' date='Jul 2 2009, 09:04 PM']There are actually many goods that could come from the legalization of prostitution.

If prostitution were legalized, it would be easier for men to avoid sinning with honorable women.

Also, more women might remain virgins before they married.

Prostitutes might be able to avoid drugs and violence, and the condition of their life might improve if prostitution were not associated with illegal activity.[/quote]
You do realize this is a similar argument for FOCA an pretty much every other pro-abortion law/bill, right? Would you support the slaughter of millions to save thousands?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908597' date='Jul 2 2009, 09:39 PM']I am of the opinion that it would be more beneficial to society to have the whores in the brothels than in every high school.

[/quote]

You stated that it was not morally better for a young man to violate the sixth commandment with a prostitute than with an honorable young woman. I agree with that, but I would say that it is better for society that sexual immorality be somewhat restricted to one group of women rather than all of them.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1908625' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:01 PM']You do realize this is a similar argument for FOCA an pretty much every other pro-abortion law/bill, right? Would you support the slaughter of millions to save thousands?[/quote]

Murder should always be illegal.

Perhaps you think that all fornication should be against the law, but I do not.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908629' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:04 PM']You stated that it was not morally better for a young man to violate the sixth commandment with a prostitute than with an honorable young woman. I agree with that, but I would say that it is better for society that sexual immorality be somewhat restricted to one group of women rather than all of them.[/quote]
In this case, what you see as 'better for society' has dangerous theological/moral underpinnings that devalue the more vulnerable (yes, prostitutes are among the most vulnerable) segments of our population.
I don't think such a train of thought is better for society by any means.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1908644' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:11 PM']In this case, what you see as 'better for society' has dangerous theological/moral underpinnings that devalue the more vulnerable (yes, prostitutes are among the most vulnerable) segments of our population.
I don't think such a train of thought is better for society by any means.[/quote]

I am agreeing with St. Augustine (and St. Thomas who quotes him). I do not think that either are infallible on this particular issue, but the thought that 'If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust' was deeply influential in Medieval European law. There were likely even canonized rulers who tolerated prostitution in their territories.

[Nihil Obstat]

At worst they were wrong. At best I would say that times have changed significantly enough that it can no longer be tolerated under any circumstances.

[Resurrexi]

In what ways do you feel that times have changed so that prostitution cannot be tolerated by the government?

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908688' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:29 PM']In what ways do you feel that times have changed so that prostitution cannot be tolerated by the government?[/quote]
That's more of a loophole for St. Aquinas and St. Augustine. I don't know enough to talk about that, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[kafka]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1908691' date='Jul 2 2009, 11:30 PM']That's more of a loophole for St. Aquinas and St. Augustine. I don't know enough to talk about that, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.[/quote]
I thought that was a poor example used by Aquinas, and the Augustine quote is logically unsound (as I already showed), although he may have been exaggerating or perhaps it is relevant in a different.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kafka' post='1908728' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:45 PM']I thought that was a poor example used by Aquinas, and the Augustine quote is logically unsound (as I already showed), although he may have been exaggerating or perhaps it is relevant in a different.[/quote]

I think the point that St. Augustine was trying to make is that prostitution controls sexual immorality in a sense. If men can seek immorality among the prostitutes, then they will not seek it elsewhere as often. Rather than having all levels of society infected with sexual immorality, mainly the prostitutes are infected.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[CatherineM]

Legalized prostitution doesn't cut down on the drug use of prostitutes. They use the drugs to be able to live with the horror their lives have become. My nephew David was a prostitute. He was stabbed to death in Tulsa on Halloween 1994 by a John. I wish he had been in jail instead.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1908743' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:56 PM']Legalized prostitution doesn't cut down on the drug use of prostitutes. They use the drugs to be able to live with the horror their lives have become. My nephew David was a prostitute. He was stabbed to death in Tulsa on Halloween 1994 by a John. I wish he had been in jail instead.[/quote]

I'm so sorry.

May he rest in peace.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Don John of Austria]

First let me say I am not sure if I think that prostitution should be legal nor am I sure it should be illegal.

I do not think that the state should criminalize fornication, for that matter I do not think the state should criminalize adultry ( though not very long ago it wwas indeed criminalized in many places.) THis is not because I do not believe these things are wrong, but, frankly, becuase the state should have little place in the private life of its subjects/citizens.

Is prostitution evil, yes.

Is it more evil than regular fornication probably not. While prostitution turns sex, which should be sacred, into a commodity, which is indeed vile, it has the virtue of being honest, everyone is on the same page.

Fornication is rampant in our current culture. But very often the quest for sex leads to dishonest behavior on the part of both genders. More often than not, the involved are not on the same page.

I think that there is no doubt that the end of legalized prostitution would convulse society with lust, that is indeed what happened when we ended it. 120 years ago prostitution was common, and the general order of society was not a seething mass of lustful imagery. Now it is. Correlation does not proves causation, but it is still powerful evidence.

What evils would be eliminated by legalizeing prostituion, slavery, abuse, the spread of disease. All could be significantly reduced if women had to be licensed by the government, swear under oath that they were willing, take a drug test ( at least while making the oath, and submit to STD test once a month. If brothals were routinely inspected by the government and in general prostitution was an acceptable industry then sex slavery, and the spread of disease could both be reduced.

Do these things equal the evil of turning sex into a commodity? Well I am not sure.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908740' date='Jul 2 2009, 11:55 PM']I think the point that St. Augustine was trying to make is that prostitution controls sexual immorality in a sense. If men can seek immorality among the prostitutes, then they will not seek it elsewhere as often. Rather than having all levels of society infected with sexual immorality, mainly the prostitutes are infected.[/quote]


Well I also think, as distasteful as this is, that in a society where there prostitution is legal and safe and more or less accepted men are more likely to [i]value[/i] a women who is pure because he can satisfy his baser desires with a prostitute who is obviously impure. As that aspect of society has changed men have come more and more to simply not value women at all, to only value sex with women.