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The Whosoevers: Murder Your Flesh

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[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1330092469' post='2392189']


It is obvious you quote the Bible, which is not synonymous with reading the Bible. Hence, my question. Many people don't read nor believe the Bible, but use it to attempt to catch Christians in hypocrisy. .
[/quote]

It's obvious if you read my responses that I read the bible in whole...but if you pay no mind to what I have said than I guess you wouldn't see that.

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[quote]
[color=#282828]You speak of truth then falsely claim the NT as being written by Catholics...which one of the authors were catholic and what proof do you have to back up that claim? [/color]
[/quote]

The Church did not "write" the Bible. However, they did put the Bible together.



[quote]
[color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]The [/size][/font][/color][url="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Testament"]Old Testament[/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] canon of Scripture is that of the [/size][/font][/color][url="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Septuagint"]Septuagint[/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3], which was the Bible of the [/size][/font][/color][url="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Apostles"]apostles[/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]. Other Christian communions through the years have deviated somewhat from this apostolic canon which the [/size][/font][/color][url="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Orthodox_Church"]Orthodox Church[/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] still uses. The canon of the [/size][/font][/color][url="http://orthodoxwiki.org/New_Testament"]New Testament[/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] was developed over the early centuries of the Church. Its first known listing in its final form is the[/size][/font][/color][i]Paschal Letter[/i][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] of St. [/size][/font][/color][url="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria"]Athanasius of Alexandria[/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] in A.D. 367.[/size][/font][/color]


[/quote]

[url="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Scripture#The_Canon_of_Scripture"]http://orthodoxwiki....on_of_Scripture[/url] Edited by Selah

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[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1330092078' post='2392187']


If you do have Truth on your side, then you should not fear. Truth fears no question. I will go where Truth leads me. Will you? My questions are not designed to convert you, but rather to understand you and how you came to your beliefs, which would help our dialog. Because if what you say is true, then I must evaluate myself.

I am glad you read the Bible, especially the NT. I am curious to know how you feel about the NT being written by Catholics.
[/quote]

I do not fear your questioning...it just becomes an annoyance when you ask a question that is obviously leading somewhere else...this gets old fast so it's best if you just get to your point and not beat around the bush.

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[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1330104824' post='2392290']


The Church did not "write" the Bible. However, they did put the Bible together.





[url="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Scripture#The_Canon_of_Scripture"]http://orthodoxwiki....on_of_Scripture[/url]
[/quote]

He asked me how I felt about the new testament being written by Catholics which I said was not...and I was correct right? As for the putting together of the bible is another topic all together. Are we now going to talk about who put the bible together? Or who wrote the bible? Or who inspired the bible? Let's not get this conversation all twisted up...again...I agree the church did put the bible together...what's the point? Edited by Louie

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In this sense, you seem to have no problem relying on the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church.

This is encouraging!
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[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330105382' post='2392296']
He asked me how I felt about the new testament being written by Catholics which I said was not...and I was correct right? As for the putting together of the bible is another topic all together. Are we now going to talk about who put the bible together? Or who wrote the bible? Or who inspired the bible? Let's not get this conversation all twisted up...again...I agree the church did put the bible together...what's the point?
[/quote] [spoiler]St. Matthew:
[img]http://www.marianland.com/monasteryicons/749.jpg[/img]

St. Mark:
[img]http://www.comeandseeicons.com/m/ftj08.jpg[/img]

St. Luke:
[img]http://www.marianland.com/monasteryicons/747.jpg[/img]

St. John:
[img]http://holy-icons.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/s_ioannislarge.jpg[/img]

St. Paul:
[img]http://fullhomelydivinity.org/salem/Icon%20of%20Paul/Paul-icon.jpg[/img]
[/spoiler]

Obviously we believe they were "Catholic." =P
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Well, yes, they were part of One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, if that's what you mean. :P

PS: The first and third icons are from monastery icons. blech. Edited by Selah

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Oops! Sorry, forgot about that. =P I just grabbed em off Google Images.

I'm just wondering as to Louie's point, because if you acknowledge that the Church compiled the Bible, yet not that "Catholics" (in other words, people who believed and taught the same beliefs that Catholics today believe and teach) wrote the NT, then you're essentially saying the Church split from the first apostles in the 400 years before the Bible was even put together. Right?

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[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330104438' post='2392284']
You speak of truth then falsely claim the NT as being written by Catholics...which one of the authors were catholic and what proof do you have to back up that claim?
[/quote]

Jesus established a Church, which He chose the apostles as its leaders with Peter being the head of the Church here on earth. This Church is the Catholic Church, which means the apostles were Catholic. Hence, Catholics wrote the NT. Or you can say God used these Catholic men to write the books of the NT.
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[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330104794' post='2392289']
It's obvious if you read my responses that I read the bible in whole...but if you pay no mind to what I have said than I guess you wouldn't see that.
[/quote]

You mostly just copy/paste Bible verses. It's hard to separate the verses and what is your words. Just quoting scripture doesn't accomplish much if we don't interpret them the same.
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i gotta agree with Papist....
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[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1330113607' post='2392382']


Jesus established a Church, which He chose the apostles as its leaders with Peter being the head of the Church here on earth. This Church is the Catholic Church, which means the apostles were Catholic. Hence, Catholics wrote the NT. Or you can say God used these Catholic men to write the books of the NT.
[/quote]

According to "your" beliefs Peter is the head of the church...but according to scripture Christ is the Head of the church....For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:23...Christ is the Head of the church...you are using circular reasoning here...you cannot convince me of something based on your beliefs or what has been taught to you...here you go just in case you missed it the first time...

Augustine (345-430 A.D.)

We who are Christians in name and in deed do not believe in Peter, but in him in whom Peter believed; we have been drawn to Christ by Peter's exhortations, not drugged by his incantations; we have been helped by his services, not hoodwinked by his sorceries. Christ was Peter's teacher in that faith which leads to everlasting life. The same Christ is our teacher too.

Source: St. Augustine's City of God, Book XVIII, Chapter 54, edited by Vernon J. Bourke, Image Books Doubleday, Copyright 1958, ISBN 0-385-02910-1, bearing the Imprimatur of Francis Cardinal Spellman, Archbishop of New York, page 425.

The Venerable Bede (637-735 A.D.)

Peter therefore is the same in Greek or Latin as Cephas in Syriac, and in each language the name is derived from “rock”; there is no doubt but that [it is] that [rock] concerning which Paul says: And that Rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10). For just as Christ, the true Light, granted to the apostles that they might be called the light of the world, thus also upon Simon, who believed in Christ the Rock [Latin, petra], He bestowed the name of Peter [Latin, petrus]. On another occasion, alluding to this etymology, He said: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church (Matt. 16).

Source: Bede, the Venerable, In Marci Evangeluim Expositio, i. 3, comment on Mark 2, in MPL, Vol. 92, col. 160. Latin.

[col. 78] And I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church. Metaphorically it is said to him: Upon this rock, that is the Saviour [col. 79] whom you have confessed, the church is built, [the Saviour] who has given to the faithful confessor a participation in His name… And whatsoever thou shalt bind, etc. This power without doubt is given to all the apostles, to whom by Him after the resurrection it was said generally, Receive [ye] the Holy Spirit, etc. (John 20). And in fact to the bishops and priests, and to every church, is committed the same function, although certain of them, not understanding rightly, think that they are able to condemn the innocent and to absolve the guilty, which they are not at all able [to do], but attempting [it], to deprive themselves of the power granted [them].

Source: Bede, the Venerable, In Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, iii. 16, comment on Matt. 16:[18], in MPL, Vol. 92, cols. 78, 79. Latin.

Augustine (345-430 A.D.) and Hilary (-367? A.D.)

Romanism professes to be governed in its interpretation of Scripture "according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers."

Now, let us see how truthful (?) the Catholic Church is and how loyally (?) she subscribes to the writings of "the Fathers."

Augustine, the learned and celebrated Bishop of Hippo, whose name is a household word among Catholics, handled Matt. 16:18 as follows:

"Thou art Peter, and upon this rock which thou hast confessed . . . saying, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my church."
[ Sermon XXVI., On Matt. XIV. 25, paragraph 1.]

And Hilary, another Catholic saint, whose day on the calendar is January 13, wrote:

"This one foundation is immovable; that is, that one blessed rock of faith, confessed by the mouth of Peter, 'Thou art the Son of the Living God.' The building of the church is upon this rock of confession. This faith hath the keys of the kingdom of heaven; what this faith shall loose or bind is bound and loosed in heaven." [On the Trinity, Book II, paragraph 23.]

In the writings of these Fathers, Peter loses his identity. The Catholic Church of to-day should either interpret Matt. 16:18 correctly, or pull St. Augustine and St. Hillary down from their high pedestals and consign them to purgatory for having misinterpreted it.

Source: Center Shots at Rome, by George P. Rutledge, 1914, published by Standard Publishing, pages 34-35.

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them (the disciples) unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mark 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mark 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luke 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luke 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Curiously, even the new Vatican Catechism confirms that it was Peter's confession of faith, and not Peter himself, that is the foundation rock upon which the church would be founded (emphasis is mine):

424 Moved by the grace on the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mat 16:16) On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church. (Mat 16:18, St Leo the Great - Sermo 4,3; Sermo 51,1; Sermo 62,2; Sermo 83,3 )

442 ... And in the synagogues immediately [Paul] proclaimed Jesus, saying, 'He is the Son of God.'" (Acts 9:12) From the beginning this acknowledgment of Christ's divine sonship will be the center of the apostolic faith, first professed by Peter as the Church's foundation. ( cf. 1 Thess 1:10, Jn 20:31; Mt 16:18)

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, published by Ligouri Publications, English translation copyright 1994 by the United States Catholic Conference, Inc.--Libreria Editrice Vaticana, bearing the Imprimi Potest of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, pages 106, 111-112.

The church is indeed founded on faith in Jesus Christ. In fact, it is the only sure foundation-

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (of faith - that whosoever believeth in him, Jesus Christ) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life).

The Rock of the Gospel message is Jesus Christ and faith in Him will indeed prevail over the gates of the grave.

The sources are there for you to reference to.

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[quote]
Cu[b]riously, even the new Vatican Catechism confirms that it was Peter's confession of faith, and not Peter himself,[/b] that is the foundation rock upon which the church would be founded (emphasis is mine):

424 Moved by the grace on the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mat 16:16) On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church. (Mat 16:18, St Leo the Great - Sermo 4,3; Sermo 51,1; Sermo 62,2; Sermo 83,3 )
[/quote]


The curious part is how people read this and HAVE to divide Peter and his faith to support their non-biblical beliefs....

LOL....


And you are suffering from the protestant Either/Or conundrum.
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[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1330113875' post='2392393']


You mostly just copy/paste Bible verses. It's hard to separate the verses and what is your words. Just quoting scripture doesn't accomplish much if we don't interpret them the same.
[/quote]

I do all this on my phone...it's obvious to me that you have paid no mind to my previous responses and explanations whether here or there...I use both scriptures and my understandings of them...being guided and taught by the Holy Spirit which enables me to do so...You do believe in the Holy Spirit and it's ability to teach anyone who is willing to be taught by it?
As for being able to seperate verses...get your bible out and read along.

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you need to hang out in the lame board....
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[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1330119567' post='2392467']



The curious part is how people read this and HAVE to divide Peter and his faith to support their non-biblical beliefs....

LOL....


And you are suffering from the protestant Either/Or conundrum.
[/quote]

Of course you would agree with your catholic brother...once again you HAVE skipped over everything else to find something to find fault in...of at least a fault by your understanding...what say you about the rest?

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Here is scripture with verses marked for those who have difficulty separating them...Mark 7

    1  Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem.  2  Now when* they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault.  3  For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders.  4  When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches. 
    5  Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" 
    6  He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
'This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me. 
    7  And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'* 
    8  For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men* - the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." 
    9  He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.  10  For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother';* and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'* 11  But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban" - ' (that is, a gift to God),  12  then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother,  13  making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."  

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[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330120176' post='2392473']
I do all this on my phone...it's obvious to me that you have paid no mind to my previous responses and explanations whether here or there...I use both scriptures and my understandings of them...being guided and taught by the Holy Spirit which enables me to do so...You do believe in the Holy Spirit and [b]it's [/b]ability to teach anyone who is willing to be taught by[b] it[/b]?
As for being able to seperate verses...get your bible out and read along.
[/quote]

First off, the Holy Spirit is "He" not "it."

But you see, the problem is that there are millions of people being "taught and guided by the Holy Spirit" who come to different conclusions on salvation, baptism, justification, church structure, the meaning of faith and works, etc, etc, etc... How can the Holy Spirit lead people in falsehood? He cannot. He does not. God is the God of Truth and order-- not chaos. You may say that "as Christians we can choose to agree to disagree on the non-essentials." To me, this is a cop-out. It still does not answer the question of why the Holy Spirit would guide people in falsehood. And besides, who gets to decide what are the non-essentials?
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[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1330124743' post='2392539']


First off, the Holy Spirit is "He" not "it."

But you see, the problem is that there are millions of people being "taught and guided by the Holy Spirit" who come to different conclusions on salvation, baptism, justification, church structure, the meaning of faith and works, etc, etc, etc... How can the Holy Spirit lead people in falsehood? He cannot. He does not. God is the God of Truth and order-- not chaos. You may say that "as Christians we can choose to agree to disagree on the non-essentials." To me, this is a cop-out. It still does not answer the question of why the Holy Spirit would guide people in falsehood. And besides, who gets to decide what are the non-essentials?
[/quote]Amen.

Louie,
In the excerpts and Scripture you posted, there wasn't anything with which Catholics would disagree, as far as I saw (with the exception of your parenthetical statements in Matthew 16:18. Reading it like that really doesn't make linguistic sense). The problem, though, is that you seem to be setting up false dichotomies, saying that since Christ is the Rock, Peter cannot also be a rock. Instead, we take the both/and approach, recognizing that of course Jesus is the Rock, but also that Peter, whose very name, given to him by Jesus, means rock, is also a rock by virtue of his faith and recognition of Jesus as the Messiah.

God bless
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[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330121302' post='2392481']
Of course you would agree with your catholic brother...once again you HAVE skipped over everything else to find something to find fault in...of at least a fault by your understanding...what say you about the rest?
[/quote] You might want to try talking with people on their terms instead of drowning them with text that they don't have the time to read or respond to. It's supposed to be a discussion, not a monologue!
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