70 replies to this topic

[dairygirl4u2c]

such as the said miracle at Lanciano Italy.

Edited by dairygirl4u2c, 09 May 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[Mark of the Cross]

1/ No 2/ It is accepted that scientific tests on the Eucharist will reveal the accidents of bread and wine. The transubstantiation goes beyond Newtonian/Einsteinian physics. It is a matter of faith without proof.

[Laudate_Dominum]

My vote has been added!!

[Mark of the Cross]

Do not put the Lord your God to the test!

[Basilisa Marie]

I heard somewhere that they've tested blood from various Eucharistic miracles, and it's always AB+. I don't know how true that is, but the important thing is that our faith doesn't depend on physical aspects of them. The physical miracles are meant to help inspire faith in deeper, transcendent things.

[Groo the Wanderer]

test for what? its already been proven to be living AB+ in all cases. what else ya looking for?

[Laudate_Dominum]

test for what? its already been proven to be living AB+ in all cases. what else ya looking for?

Whole genome sequencing would be ideal.

P.S. Might you have a source or sources regarding the "AB+ in all cases" thing? Just curious. Sounds interesting. Peace.

Edited by Laudate_Dominum, 10 May 2012 - 01:27 AM.

[Groo the Wanderer]

What would be the purpose of mapping the genome other than to say 'yup. we done did it. derp.' If there is not something to be gained, no sense in doing a DNA mapping.

here's a partial listing: http://www.catholicd...ticmiracles.htm read each one to find those on which the Precious Blood and/or the Holy Flesh was tested.
more; http://www.circleofp...c-miracles.html
listing by region: http://www.therealpr...ir/engl_mir.htm

Edited by Groo the Wanderer, 10 May 2012 - 05:08 AM.

[Papist]

such as the said miracle at Lanciano Italy.

To what end purpose would all these testings be for?

[Laudate_Dominum]

What would be the purpose of mapping the genome other than to say 'yup. we done did it. derp.' If there is not something to be gained, no sense in doing a DNA mapping.

It would enable definitive testing of the validity of the Eucharistic miracles. Assuming they are legit, it would be fascinating to learn about Jesus' genetics. If we could learn about the genome of a God-man, why wouldn't we want to!? Beats the pantaloons off the NT genealogies. Was Jesus genetically susceptible to specific diseases? How closely related are we to Jesus? What is his paternity like, given the non-human Father? And a million other fascinating questions. "Good news people: The supernatural is demonstrably real and Jesus is probably as advertised. Oh, and He's left us His holy genome to reverently explore. Amen." How would this not be teh amesome? lol.

[Laudate_Dominum]

here's a partial listing: http://www.catholicd...ticmiracles.htm read each one to find those on which the Precious Blood and/or the Holy Flesh was tested.
more; http://www.circleofp...c-miracles.html
listing by region: http://www.therealpr...ir/engl_mir.htm

Thanks for the resources. I plan on checking it out in the near future. Props.

[Hasan]

What would be the purpose of mapping the genome other than to say 'yup. we done did it. derp.' If there is not something to be gained, no sense in doing a DNA mapping.

here's a partial listing: http://www.catholicd...ticmiracles.htm read each one to find those on which the Precious Blood and/or the Holy Flesh was tested.
more; http://www.circleofp...c-miracles.html
listing by region: http://www.therealpr...ir/engl_mir.htm

I would provide some scientific validity to the claim. If you can prove that the exact same genetic sequence is being extracted from blood samples that you can show have been kept separate then you have a pretty powerful claim.

[Laudate_Dominum]

To what end purpose would all these testings be for?

I can't speak for dairy, but one of the reasons why I think such testing is important is that being duped is croutons and I'd rather not adore an artifact of medieval hucksterism. Truth is something to value. If we can test the validity of something, let it be so. Then, if there are legitimate artifacts of supernatural origin, what more fascinating objects of study are there? If the evidence is actually legit then I think it would help convert unbelievers. This is also a good thing. Doubter: "There is no good evidence for God, etc." Teh Church: "Actually there is. Behold these miraculous artifacts and teh compelling body of research." Doubter: "Fascinating. Maybe I'll give teh Church a chance..."

[Laudate_Dominum]

I would provide some scientific validity to the claim. If you can prove that the exact same genetic sequence is being extracted from blood samples that you can show have been kept separate then you have a pretty powerful claim.

Exactly. 'Tis much, much stronger evidence than mere blood type, or whatever.

This is a diff topic, but I'd like to see the blood miracle of Saint Januarius be tested. A stage magician could create a similar "miracle" so the only way to fairly call it a possible miracle is to determine that the substance is actually blood and that there is no plausible way that the liquefaction could occur by natural processes. Is it so hard to just test that it is blood? A spectroscopic analysis would need not disturb the reliquary or destroy a sample.

Edited by Laudate_Dominum, 10 May 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[sixpence]

i dunno the tests on Lanciano are already rather convincing, I feel like if people aren't already convinced DNA is not going to help. People could still argue that someone had placed had simply placed heart muscle in there.

[Laudate_Dominum]

i dunno the tests on Lanciano are already rather convincing, I feel like if people aren't already convinced DNA is not going to help. People could still argue that someone had placed had simply placed heart muscle in there.

The Lanciano tests were not convincing at all, in my opinion. It debunks some of the claims about the miracle (which is glossed over), and reports some uncritical, suspect analyses that actually have plausible natural explanations. Apologetics sites tend to blow that data way out of proportion. I think the case against the Lanciano tests is quite strong. DNA testing and comparison of alleged miracles would be far more valuable. Especially if it was done in a transparent, open source kind of way. And the research should be seriously reviewed, independently corroborated, etc. We can do much better than that faux scientific research of forty years ago.

And even if it were true that the '70s tests are convincing, I don't agree that more research would be a waste of time. It is easy to dismiss one anomalous study, initiated by the Vatican many decades ago. The conclusions become more valid after a scientific community has worked on it a while and it has survived criticism. A modern study, with contemporary forensics technologies, would only make the case stronger and it would be more difficult to dismiss.
You can find an obscure "study" here and there supporting all kinds of bizarre paranormal bovine excrement. If the Lanciano tests stand alone as convincing evidence, there are many silly things that one could rightly believe based on similar standards of evidence. I don't think it's fair to insinuate that those who are aware of Lanciano but unconvinced are simply dogmatic unbelievers.

Edited by Laudate_Dominum, 10 May 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[Papist]

I can't speak for dairy, but one of the reasons why I think such testing is important is that being duped is croutons and I'd rather not adore an artifact of medieval hucksterism. Truth is something to value. If we can test the validity of something, let it be so. Then, if there are legitimate artifacts of supernatural origin, what more fascinating objects of study are there? If the evidence is actually legit then I think it would help convert unbelievers. This is also a good thing. Doubter: "There is no good evidence for God, etc." Teh Church: "Actually there is. Behold these miraculous artifacts and teh compelling body of research." Doubter: "Fascinating. Maybe I'll give teh Church a chance..."

The Church conducts investigations, which may involve scientific tests as she sees fit, as in the case of Lanciano. I don't see it necessary to interfere with the Church on this.

[Groo the Wanderer]

you were given the proof from tests already conducted. without looking into them or the methodologies you refuse to accept their validity.

go look for yourself. they are all still around. just travel a bit.

or are you just another reyb who clamors for proof then refuses to accept any that is given?

I would provide some scientific validity to the claim. If you can prove that the exact same genetic sequence is being extracted from blood samples that you can show have been kept separate then you have a pretty powerful claim.

the tests were valid. it is now YOUR burden to prove otherwise.

[Laudate_Dominum]

The Church conducts investigations, which may involve scientific tests as she sees fit, as in the case of Lanciano. I don't see it necessary to interfere with the Church on this.

I don't understand. In particular, what do you mean by interfering with teh Church?

[Laudate_Dominum]

you were given the proof from tests already conducted. without looking into them or the methodologies you refuse to accept their validity.

I don't consider the Linoli paper to be "proof" of anything, and certainly not of the miraculous. I have to employ the same standard of evidence with this as I would with any other claims of the supernatural/paranormal. Confirmation bias is the devil.