Smoking And Ciggarettes...

[IcePrincessKRS]

Its a dancing banana but we can pretend its a Twinkie!

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Aug 29 2004, 03:04 PM']
If we are going to outlaw all guilty pleasures because they are bad for our health, then we should outlaw all fried food like french fries, onion rings, fish n' chips, fried chicken, and all other junk food like Twinkies, Ding Dongs, Krispy Kreme, potato chips, pork rinds, Big Macs....

[/quote]
Boo-yah!
Come on folks, alcohol is good in moderation, as is cheesecake or burgers. If you drink too much alcohol or eat too much cheesecake or burgers, health is affected. Likewise with tobacco. The key words here are moderation and too much.

As an aside, those Truth ads make me want to smoke.

[Phazzan]

[quote name='BLAZEr' date='Aug 29 2004, 01:41 PM'] You are from Australia right? And you are only 19. I don't blame you for not understanding this point. You have been raised in a culture and a political system where you are accustomed to the Government being the arbiter of what your moral choices should be. However, as an American and a Catholic, I do not believe this should be the case. [/quote]
That's about the dumbest thing I've read all day. That's about as incoherent and illogical as MorphRC's comments regarding smoking. So WTF would you, as an American, and as a Catholic know about Australian culture and politics? Morph was right, get off your high horse.

[BLAZEr]

[quote name='Phazzan' date='Aug 29 2004, 11:41 PM'] That's about the dumbest thing I've read all day.  That's about as incoherent and illogical as MorphRC's comments regarding smoking.  So WTF would you, as an American, and as a Catholic know about Australian culture and politics?  Morph was right, get off your high horse. [/quote]
Hey Phazzan . . . I probably know more about Australian culture and politics than you think, either way the statement was made to highlight the fact that most people who grow up in socialized governments (or semi socialized as is the case in Australia) where legislation is used to "educate" the populace about their social and moral responsibility, one becomes accustomed to assuming that the way to deal with a problem is through legislation . . . making something "illegal" becomes the way to say something is unacceptable, or innapropriate and exceedingly in liberal (in the classic sense) societies.

In fact, more and more in these societies (Europe is the prime example, as well as Candada) what is legal is what is moral and what is illegal is what is immoral. More and more the idea of subsidiarity is excised from the society. This is happening in the United States and is, quite honestly, the goal of the Democratic party.

However, since the United States is not a socialist country (although more and more it is becoming one) the idea that Government is the method through which undesirable aspects of society are eliminated is not quite so ingrained. We also have the relatively recent history of the Prohibition movement which was an unparalleled attempt to legislate moral choices.

The fact that he is 19 is just used to illustrate that his socio-political formation has occurred within the last 10 years and therefore does not have a memory of a less socialized system, nor has he probably had the opportunitty to really question whether this method is a good one or not.

Just so you know where I'm coming from. JA

[Ash Wednesday]

Yeah, I thought the dancing banana looked kinda like a twinkie....

[Phazzan]

[quote name='BLAZEr' date='Aug 30 2004, 12:41 AM'] Just so you know where I'm coming from. JA [/quote]
Are you Australian? Have you lived here?

[BLAZEr]

No, but when I was in college and still a govt. major (before I switched) I took a class on the Politics of Oceania which was mainly Australia, New Zealand, and the Phillipines.

I would not claim to be an expert on your political system, but I know a fair amount.

I'm rather a fan of John Howard though, take that as you will.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Phazzan' date='Aug 30 2004, 04:48 AM'] Morph, the same arguements could be used against the use of alcohol. i.e. Alcohol causes destruction of liver, alcohol causes car accidents, alcohol destroys lives bla bla bla.

Fact is, it's not alcohol and cigerettes that cause illness, death, fatality, destruction whatever, it's how people choose to use (and abuse) it. [/quote]
Only thru over-drinking. Moderate drinking doesnt. I dont know if wine is under the alcohol banner, but health doctors actually ask people to have a class of red wine a day. I cant remember why, but apparently its good for your system.

Tobacco, causes all the above, whether you have 1 or 100.

[Ash Wednesday]

I think I'm going to go have a glass of my dad's homemade elderberry wine. It's gooooood!

[BLAZEr]

Mmmm, Ash, can you email me some?

[MorphRC]

What is it with you and lazy arguements, I get official research and notes, and explain my position, its lazy. Typical smoker attitude, defends it.

[quote]It is still not responsible (honest or true or even reasonable, for that matter) to say that because someone is against making cigarettes illegal that they are therefore in favor of cancer or, since you seem to dispute that you said that, to say that being in favor of making cigarettes illegal is because you are against "diseases and subtle killing thru passive smoking.ancer"[/quote]

Ok lets see. If someone is pro-abortion laws, does that mean there against abortion??

If someone is for pro-crack laws, does that mean there against it?

NO! Its simple logic. If you support smoking and its legalization, then you inadvertly support and obviously dont care for the effects it has on people, its simple and straight-forward.

[quote]Hi! I'm an example of this.  I believe smoking cigarettes is bad for people.  I discourage it.  In fact, I actively try to help people stop.  However, I think making them illegal is a ridiculous idea and one that only someone who is a socialist would support.[/quote]

Dont give me that socialist, self-righteous junk. IT KILLS! DONT U UNDERSTAND THAT!!!!!!!! IT KILLS = DEATH = DEAD = 6ft under! OMG. Its so SIMPLE, but you refuse to listen to it, why? Smoker.

[quote]You are from Australia right?  And you are only 19.  I don't blame you for not understanding this point.  You have been raised in a culture and a political system where you are accustomed to the Government being the arbiter of what your moral choices should be.  However, as an American and a Catholic, I do not believe this should be the case.[/quote]

Lol I knew it, the stupid age line as usual, as if your above me.

More egotism.

Accustomed? Get over yourself already.

Im a Catholic, in Australia, that believes it should be illegal becoz one.[b] IT KILLS[/b]. And dont go using 'oh well cars kill to' junk.

[quote]I actually think its better for someone to choose not to smoke, even though its legal, because they are making a choice with their will to do something healthy and wise.  This is called virtue.  It's a good thing.[/quote]

Then I believe abortion should stay legal to Same principle applies.

[quote]Again, that's called a smack down.[/quote]

And thats what i call a worthless debate and arguement, 'Smack Down'.. You need some new lines..wwf..lol childish junk. You know its fake right?

[BLAZEr]

You still aren't listening. That's ok . . . you also aren't even trying to be rational in this discussion . . .and that's ok too. That's usually how infants approach a subject.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='BLAZEr' date='Aug 30 2004, 05:03 PM'] You still aren't listening. That's ok . . . you also aren't even trying to be rational in this discussion . . .and that's ok too. That's usually how infants approach a subject. [/quote]
You know. I aint gonna answer that, cause if I actually said whats on my mind, dust would ban me, and not you.

Pax Christi

[Phazzan]

Morph's right Blazer, your arrogance will probably be your downfall. No offence...

[BLAZEr]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 30 2004, 01:24 AM'] NO! Its simple logic. If you support smoking and its legalization, then you inadvertly support and obviously dont care for the effects it has on people, its simple and straight-forward.
[/quote]
I will, however, address this simply because what you say is exactly my point about your lazy argument. This is NOT logical Something is "logical" just because you say its "simple logic".

What has been said (at least by me, but I venture to suggest others have meant it as well) is that we oppose making cigarettes or smoking illegal.

If I oppose making X illegal, that does not necessarily mean I support X.


For instance: A = B

however, it is not the case that not A = not B

Why? because what if C = B also

Then it is possible that "not A" = C and therefore C = B and B = "not A" as well.


Or another example

Socrates (A) is a Philosopher (B)

Aristotle © is a Philosopher (B)



It does not follow that "not A" is equal to "not B" (or Not Socrates equals not a philosopher).

The same is true for the smoking argument.

I can be against making smoking illegal and still be against smoking. It would mean I do not believe that making smoking illegal is the way to make smoking stop.

This is similar to the argument made by pro-aborts. However, there is a bit of a distinction. Murdering a baby is never morally licit. Smoking a cigarette is morally licit.

That's simple logic.