Benedict XVI and Rock Music

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='001' date='Apr 22 2005, 07:47 PM'] By the way, not even my kindergarten brother uses 'troll' as an insult. Get some new words (try a thesaurus or a dictionary). [/quote]
My friend, you must not know the context of what the term "troll" is and the kind of troll I am talking about.


Welcome to the internet. You must be new to it! :tiphat:

[Ash Wednesday]

[url="http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm"]http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm[/url]

What is a Troll?

An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.

Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.

[b]Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.

Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words.[/b]

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.[/quote]

They sound like the Nazis.

[Ash Wednesday]

Indeed. The irony.

That's not all. Read on!

[quote]
Why Do They Do It?

Affirmation.

Regular net users know how delightful it is when somebody responds to something they have written. It is a meeting of the minds, which is an intellectual thrill, but it is also an acknowledgement of one's value — and that can be a very satisfying emotional reward.

[b]Trolls crave attention, and they care not whether it is positive or negative. They see the Internet as a mirror into which they can gaze in narcissistic rapture.[/b]
[/quote]

[sweetpea316]

Ooooh! Thanks for clearing that up. I really was confused about the whole troll thing at first. God bless. Oh, and as for the Nazi thing...get over it people.

[001]

Okay let's see, I'm not what you define as a troll. I'm just stating facts and opinions. You still are ignoring Ratzinger's strange affixation on persecuting rock. Its just so ridiculous and outdated.
-by the way, I'm not sure if you're aware of "troll"'s racist connotations.

[musturde]

001, I've argued with people who were 100% fixated against this Pope but they admitted that he didn't like the Nazis. They called him a coward but he was 17. Do you expect a 17 year old to make that much of a difference? He risked his life to escape later on also. The Jerusalem Post even said he was tight. What does that mean? Real Israelis don't neccisarily hate him. Only ignorant Catholics (mostly) hate him. I can bet you don't like him because he's very conservative.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='musturde' date='Apr 22 2005, 10:29 PM'] Only ignorant Catholics (mostly) hate him. I can bet you don't like him because he's very conservative. [/quote]
My point exactly. Well stated!

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote]You still are ignoring Ratzinger's strange affixation on persecuting rock. Its just so ridiculous and outdated. [/quote]

All right, moving on, I'll give my take on what he has to say about rock music, at least my interpretation.

I don't get the impression that the man is going to step into the chair of St. Peter ex-Cathedra and tell the faithful what to listen to and what not to listen to. He's not persecuting rock -- he's just voicing his concerns. He's entitled to an opinion whether or not you agree with it. I'd be very surprised if the 77 year old WWII generation man, when asked about the issue, would raise a lighter and scream, "preach on, brother Beavis!"

It's my understanding that from the context where he's writing, he's addressing in part it's influence when it filters in the liturgy. I can't stand modern music with the mass. I think it smells of elderberries, and sounds banal and cheezy. (No offense to people that disagree with me, I'm sure that there will be those that do.)

It sure doesn't hold a candle to the mass I attended when I was in London that had timeless classical and Gregorian chants that moved even my perpetually-cynical best friend and travelling companion to tears. That was seven years ago and I still remember that mass. A lot of the banal music in the masses I've attended over the years don't ring a bell and I sure didn't find them moving in the same way.

I actually agree with concerns he is raising about music having potential spiritual and psychological impact on listeners. I think there is such a thing as junk food for the ears and brain. I listen to some secular music, all kinds of stuff. But I'm selective about what I listen to. There are some aspects of the music industry that are not compatible with the Catholic faith and there is no escaping that.

From what I've heard, he's planning on continuing with the World Youth Day traditions that our last pope had. I've been to WYD and they play all kinds of music there--jazz, rock, funk, rappin' monks, etc. I am in doubt that they will be piping Mozart through the loudspeakers throughout the whole festival. I am not under the impression that he is [i]that[/i] intolerant.

I've heard the man doesn't care for people applauding during the mass, either. But it being an Italian tradition, he patiently tolerated the clapping during the pope's funeral. It's not like he told them all to shut up.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Apr 22 2005, 11:30 PM'] I can't stand modern music with the mass. I think it smells of elderberries, and sounds banal and cheezy. (No offense to people that disagree with me, I'm sure that there will be those that do.)

[/quote]
Amen!! Preach it!!!

[melporcristo]

Ash Weds. -- I like what you are saying. Having the mass in modern music, to me, is OK but ONLY if it suits the mass i.e. good gather song at beginning, good preperation song during, reflective songs about the Eucharist during communion, etc. Except, as American's, we are so used to fitting the Mass to how we feel that we begin to just change the whole Mass into our own little adgenda, which brings into play the inapropriate music for Mass. Many of the music ministers don't know the Mass well enough to get the music right though. In fact, many Catholics don't know the Mass well enough at all!! -- Okay, I'm getting off the soap box of mine ...

001 -- welcome to the phorum, but remember, always clarify your argument rather than jump on the opposition right away. Know your facts about the Holy Father bro. My boyfriend's dad was apart of the Hitler Youth and is the kindest non-racist guy I have ever met; the Hitler Youth was almost like the Boy Scouts of America, but of course with a different hidden agenda that the general public in Germany had no idea of. I could go on forever, but read your history books about this bro.

<>< Mel

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='001' date='Apr 22 2005, 10:33 PM'] Okay let's see, I'm not what you define as a troll. I'm just stating facts and opinions. You still are ignoring Ratzinger's strange affixation on persecuting rock. Its just so ridiculous and outdated.
-by the way, I'm not sure if you're aware of "troll"'s racist connotations. [/quote]
You are stating your opinons, but certainly not facts.
Having concerns about the bad effects of rock music certainly isn't persecution, nor ridiculous and certainly not outdated.

Rock music bypasses the higher functioning areas and directly effects the primitive brain and areas of emotional control.

The only connotation troll has on this board is stupidity and maliciousness, don't even try the race card here.
Time will tell if one is a troll or someone here to actually be a part of the phamily.

[Myles Domini]

Modern music in the mass can sound dignified. The majority of the time it simply acts as a policitcal vehicle for the dissidents in the Church and so it doesnt. Moreover it can never match the Gregorian chant for meditative quality.

As for what Benedict XVI is saying about music. Is anyone seriously going to say he's wrong? There is and has and will be a correlation between sex, drugs and rock and roll. Are we not remembering that Benedict XVI witnessed this first hand in the wake of the Council and its perversion by the forces of sexual liberation?

Me personally, I'm afro-carribean, and I like rap and rap-rock like nu-metal. I'll even give Red Hot Chili's a bang every now and again. But can I deny that rap music doesnt give out the most positive message most of the time? That lots of youth's my age are influenced by the images they see on TV? I mean the fact that so many people now think its great to have hydraulics on your car and talk about guns like they've got any should be evidence that music does influence people.

Hats off to the people at Phatmass they've taken Music and given it an anchor, which is what Benedict XVI actually advocates in the chapter of Spirit of the Liturgy that the extract in this thread comes from. The fact of the matter is that a lot of music these days epitomises the philosophy on music that makes it a mere act of the will and not an act of the intellect and thus a lot of music, often very powerful, carrying very bad messages is produced and pumped into the consumer industry.

[Guest Eremite]

Not to speak for the Cardinal, but I would imagine that when he speaks of the destructiveness of rock as music (even apart from its lyrical content), he is speaking of the hard core, weird stuff like Marilyn Manson and what not. I don't think, for example, he would feel the same way about soft rock.

Edited April 23, 2005 by Eremite

[Noel's angel]

i don't think he can talk about rock in that way-we just have to listen to Seven Sorrows to show that not all rock music has a bad effect. I agree that some rock music is destructive, but no more than modern dance music and r'n'b. Just because something is rock, doesn't make it bad.

The Pope is a smart man, but he really needs educating about modern music lol maybe we should get him to listen to fr stan and seven sorrows and Phatmass radio

Edited April 23, 2005 by Noel's angel