Abortion vs. Death Penalty

[Carolou]

[quote name='frozencell' date='Dec 25 2005, 02:07 AM']caralou...

I'm in the Air Force. I have the ever-present possibility of being deployed to Iraq or somewhere close (as do all other service members in any branch of the military). I am here to protect my country and to do a job. Which is what this is. A job. 24/7/365. I do what I am told by my superiors and commanding officers. If I don't then there are grave consequences for my inaction. If I am commanded to enter a situation where I may have to defend either myself, someone else, or my country, even to a lethal end (if required), I would not consider myself a murderer. I am doing what I am told, therefore obeying a command from God to respect and obey my "elders". If I were to go and mindlessly slaughter innocent men, women, and children, then, yes, I would be a murderer.
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I do want to apologize, frozencell...I think I was a bit rude. I know that there are really good people that join and go to war to protect this country. Both my grandfathers and my Godfather were in wars. Some of my best friends older brother is joining the marines really soon too. I've known them for years, since I was real little. He's a great guy and Catholic, strong in his faith. So, I just wanted to say sorry.

I've been thinking about it more. I really feel that in war it's probably the persons intentions. I'm sure there can be some people that go to war, that may like killing... I think most do infact go to protect people, though.

I do hope you'll forgive me

[PadreSantiago]

yeah isn't it funny that Bush doesn't support Abortion but he has no qualms about murdering for oil in another country or adults in his state

[Cam42]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Dec 29 2005, 06:24 AM']yeah isn't it funny that Bush doesn't support Abortion but he has no qualms about murdering for oil in another country or adults in his state
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But Bush does support abortion......

[quote]Q: Would you try to overturn the FDA’s approval last week of the abortion pill RU-486?
BUSH: I don’t think a president can do that. I was disappointed in the ruling because I’m worried that that pill will cause more people to have abortions. As to the drug itself, I hope the FDA took its time to make sure that American women will be safe who use this drug.

GORE: Well, the FDA took 12 years. And I do support that decision. They determined it was medically safe for the women who use that drug.[/quote]

(source: Presidential debate, Boston MA Oct 3, 2000)

[quote][b]McCAIN [to Bush]: Do you believe in the exemption, in the case of abortion, for rape, incest, and life of the mother?
BUSH: [u]Yeah, I do.[/u][/b]
McCain: [But you] support the pro-life plank [in the Republican Party platform]?
BUSH: I do.
McCAIN: So, in other words, your position is that you believe there’s an exemption for rape, incest and the life of the mother, but you want the platform that you’re supposed to be leading to have no exemption. Help me out there, will you?
BUSH: I will. The platform doesn’t talk about what specifically should be in the constitutional amendment. The platform speaks about a constitutional amendment. It doesn’t refer to how that constitutional amendment ought to be defined.
McCAIN: If you read the platform, it has no exceptions.
BUSH: John, I think we need to keep the platform the way it is. This is a pro-life party.
McCAIN: Then you are contradicting your platform. [/quote]

(source: GOP Debate on the Larry King Show Feb 15, 2000)

[quote]Bush has a solidly anti-abortion record in Texas, pushing aggressively for restrictions on the practice and for a more streamlined adoption process. But he has also been careful to send out subtle signals, including saying that e will not use abortion as a litmus test for selecting Supreme Court justices, and considering Tom Ridge, the pro-choice governor of Pennsylvania, as his running mate. (He chose Johnsonville brat Cheney, solidly anti, in the end). Bush:
1.  [b]opposes abortion except in cases of rape or incest, or to save the life of the mother[/b]
2.  [b]supports laws under which parents are notified if minors undergo abortions[/b]
3.  supports a ban on “partial-birth” (late-term) abortions
4.  opposes the use of taxpayer money to pay for abortions
5.  wants to make adoption easier, and to promote abstinence programs in schools
6.  [b]will not try to change the constitution to outlaw abortion.[/b][/quote]

(source: The Economist, “Issues 2000” special Sep 30, 2000)

NOT pro-life. Anti-abortion, maybe, but not pro-life. I think that ignoring what he says and labelling him as pro-life is shaky at best.

[Mercy me]

Carolou, the catechism is really great in talking about the issue of war. You might check it out. You can find it around paragraph 2300. Sorry I don't have mine nearby to give the exact location.

[Carolou]

[quote name='Mercy me' date='Dec 31 2005, 12:53 AM']Carolou, the catechism is really great in talking about the issue of war.  You might check it out.  You can find it around paragraph 2300.  Sorry I don't have mine nearby to give the exact location.
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thank you hehe

[frozencell]

knight...

Let me clarify my point. I should have said society in general. Yes, I know that convicts pose a threat to their fellow inmates, but you have to think that those others are there for a reason, too. And the gaurds? Very unfortunate, but I believe that prison gaurds are well-informed of the risks before accepting such a position.

[frozencell]

Caralou...

Of course you are forgiven. I never held it against you in the first place, just stating my case.

[catholicinsd]

Abortion, the Death Penalty, and War are all evil and go againist the Gospel of Life by Pope John Paul the Great. Any Catholic who actively supports them, especially the first two, risks Excommunication, (or at least they should.)

[Cam42]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Dec 31 2005, 10:48 PM']Abortion, the Death Penalty, and War are all evil and go againist the Gospel of Life by Pope John Paul the Great. Any Catholic who actively supports them, especially the first two, risks Excommunication, (or at least they should.)
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That is not entirely accurate. While one can be excommunicated for actively procurring an abortion, support of the death penalty and just war is not an excommunicable offense.

However, in the scope of today's morality, the death penalty should only be used if it is the ONLY possible means of protecting the human person against the unjust agressor, then it is allowable. However, the application of this in today's society is rare if practically non-existent.

[quote name='CCC #2267']Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."[/quote]

As for just war, the Church teaches:

[quote name='CCC #2308']All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."[/quote]

[quote name='CCC #2309']The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.


The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.[/quote]

[quote name='CCC #2310']Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.[/quote]

Clear teaching on the last two, and not excommunicatable.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Dec 31 2005, 07:48 PM']Abortion, the Death Penalty, and War are all evil and go againist the Gospel of Life by Pope John Paul the Great. Any Catholic who actively supports them, especially the first two, risks Excommunication, (or at least they should.)
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catholicinsd, you haven't been on here that long. I suggest you do a search and find out more about where we stand on the issue.

and look [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/"]HERE[/url] as well.

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/images/bosdirectory_logo.gif[/img]

It'll be helpful.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Dec 31 2005, 11:13 PM']catholicinsd, you haven't been on here that long. I suggest you do a search and find out more about where we stand on the issue.

and look [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/"]HERE[/url]  as well.

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/images/bosdirectory_logo.gif[/img]

It'll be helpful. 
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I'm not saying they do currently run the risk, I'm saying they should.

[Cam42]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Jan 1 2006, 12:31 AM']I'm not saying they do currently run the risk, I'm saying they should.
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And that view is not consistent with any Catholic teaching, ever. Part of our call to be Catholic is to assent our will to the current and traditional teachings of the Church. The view you posit is not in keeping with that charism.

That is what we are getting at.

[catholicinsd]

So the Phamily is only "pro-life" when the life we're trying to save is a sinless fetus or handicapped person? I'm only a sophmore in High School, but to me that doesn't seem to be what Jesus would do.

[frozencell]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Jan 1 2006, 01:11 AM']So the Phamily is only  "pro-life" when the life we're trying to save is a sinless fetus or handicapped person? I'm only a sophmore in High School, but to me that doesn't seem to be what Jesus would do.
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No. As my priest so eloquently put it to me before. War is not an option; it's what's left over after all options are exhausted.

And as stated before, the Church supports the death penalty when you can't competently incarcerate someone effectively enough to keep others safe. In this country that is not very feasible. In others it might not be as feasible. So, for America, the death penalty (as far as the Church is concerned) is not supported or an option.

[catholicinsd]

Well, I'll follow Rome's teaching, although I can't think of any country that the exception would aply to. This story is why I'm so opposed to Capital Punishment. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyen_Tuong_Van"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyen_Tuong_Van[/url]