Abortion vs. Death Penalty

[Cam42]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Jan 3 2006, 01:58 AM']Capital Punishment is the Ethenasia of a person who made a bad choice.
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Quantifiable proof for that.....not platitudes.

Thanks.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 3 2006, 01:00 AM']
I'm wrong to say killing someone is wrong?

Cam, you are 33 with how much power over pm and ur picking a 16 year old kid? The expressions "Pick on someone ur own size" and "My opinion is mine & yours is yours" both come to mind.
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Oh, I don't have much power over PM. I am not picking on a 16 year old kid, I am trying to teach you that your position is wrong. I am sorry that you refuse to accept the proper catechetical position, but I am not going to back off, because of your age, nor am I going to cut you any slack. If you think that I am picking on you, you are sadly mistaken. Read those threads.....this is softball stuff compared to how I normally debate. Ask anyone who has really gone at it with me.

Incidentally, I am giving you Catholic teaching, not opinion. My opinion happens to be lock-step with said teaching, as are all moral issues, but then again, that's what one get's when one assents one's will to the teaching of the Church.

In this case, I can tell you honestly, 4 years of undergraduate Theology resulting in a BA (as well as degrees in Philosophy and Catholic Studies) and 2 more of graduate work in Systematics, my view on Catholic teaching is quite informed and quite correct. When one is a Theologian, by degree, his opinion holds some weight.
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Until forty years ago the Church taught the Jews killed Christ. But we changed.

[Guest Rick777]

That was a low blow.

[Cam42]

That has NOTHING to do with this conversation......who's trying to change the topic? And you don't understand the development of that teaching either. Wanna discuss that? Start a new thread.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 3 2006, 01:09 AM']That has NOTHING to do with this conversation......who's trying to change the topic?  And you don't understand the development of that teaching either.  Wanna discuss that?  Start a new thread.
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The point is sometimes we change.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Jan 2 2006, 11:11 PM']The point is sometimes we change.
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like the topics you keep bringing up besides the death penalty?

The point is you are off topic and grabbing at straws.

The fact is you are inconsistent with Church teaching. YOu cannot go around and claim that all who believe in the death penalty should be excommunicated. The DP is wrong in our today's society and rarely if never should be use, but that does not mean it should never again be excercised or completely done away with.

The fact is you cannot, without siting your opinion after opinion, debate and I truly hope you are better in person in trying to get the message across that the death penaly is wrong because you are sending the wrong message of what the Church teaches and believes.

You have more in common with Cam than you think on the death penalty and if I were you, I would get your facts straight, because they would make an even stronger case for those Catholics who still believe it should be used in today's society.

until you do so, you sound ignorant of the Catholic faith and the death penalty.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='DingoBot' date='Jan 2 2006, 12:18 AM']Here are some related resources from Catholic sites.

[url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/criminal.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/criminal.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/9-10-98/article2.html"]http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Do...8/article2.html[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Homiletic/2000-06/horst.html"]http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Ho...0-06/horst.html[/url]
[url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2000/sep/00090803.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2000/sep/00090803.html[/url]
[url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/nov/05111802.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/nov/05111802.html[/url]
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If you read his stuff, I'd say DingoBot has already pretty much ended this debate. :

[qfnol31]

[quote]Capital Punishment is the Ethenasia of a person who made a bad choice.

Ethenasia- killing someone you can't handle anymore[/quote]

catholicinsd, you and I seem to have a different opinion of what the death penalty actually is.

First, you claim it is the euthanizing of a person who made an evil choice. If that is the case it implies a single person doing so. In this case, the state is the one who executes the person and not an individual. If it is an individual doing such (just like Mace Windu tried in Star Wars III to the emperor) then that would probably be an evil act in itself.

Next thing wrong with that is that you haven't made a distinction between an innocent person and a non-innocent person.

Let me explain through an example given me. If a person comes and attacks me trying to kill me, if I kill him solely in self-defense I've not committed an evil act - I've not sinned. If I go up to a person who has annoyed me and kill him, then I've probably done both (definitely evil, almost assuredly sinful).

A person who has killed another is no longer innocent and is at the mercy of the state. The Church has always allowed for the death penalty, a system of punishment existing since before the Incarnation. God Himself gave it to the Israelites and so it cannot be an evil thing.

You argue as though the death penalty is intrinsically evil, always wrong. You did this in calling it euthanasia of a person who made an evil choice, for euthanasia is intrinsically evil. If that is so, then it has been wrong throughout history even in the Old Testament. To say it is an evil act then is to say that God called the Israelites to commit an evil act, and that most assuredly is not the case, I should hope.

[quote]Until forty years ago the Church taught the Jews killed Christ. But we changed.[/quote]

Actually, the Jews did kill Our Lord, though indirectly. And yet they didn't in the way that we think of now. What has changed here is not the teaching, but an emphasis of blame, one wrongly misplaced by misunderstanding people to begin with. In other words, the Church has spoken against wrongfully holding Jews accountable for Jesus' Crucifixion, most especially because they are not to blame any more than we are, for all have sinned.

By the way, your name is on your blog.

[qfnol31]

[quote]The DP is wrong in our today's society and rarely if never should be use, but that does not mean it should never again be excercised or completely done away with.[/quote]

Tina, this may be a little off topic, but I don't think that's quite accurate.

It's not wrong in our society (well, often it is, but not completely) and it's not a Church teaching that it should be rare.

Just hoping to bring clarification to a muddy thread.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 3 2006, 12:38 AM']catholicinsd, you and I seem to have a different opinion of what the death penalty actually is.

First, you claim it is the euthanizing of a person who made an evil choice.  If that is the case it implies a single person doing so.  In this case, the state is the one who executes the person and not an individual.  If it is an individual doing such (just like Mace Windu tried in Star Wars III to the emperor) then that would probably be an evil act in itself.

Next thing wrong with that is that you haven't made a distinction between an innocent person and a non-innocent person.

Let me explain through an example given me.  If a person comes and attacks me trying to kill me, if I kill him solely in self-defense I've not committed an evil act - I've not sinned.  If I go up to a person who has annoyed me and kill him, then I've probably done both (definitely evil, almost assuredly sinful).

A person who has killed another is no longer innocent and is at the mercy of the state.  The Church has always allowed for the death penalty, a system of punishment existing since before the Incarnation.  God Himself gave it to the Israelites and so it cannot be an evil thing.

You argue as though the death penalty is intrinsically evil, always wrong.  You did this in calling it euthanasia of a person who made an evil choice, for euthanasia is intrinsically evil.  If that is so, then it has been wrong throughout history even in the Old Testament.  To say it is an evil act then is to say that God called the Israelites to commit an evil act, and that most assuredly is not the case, I should hope.
Actually, the Jews did kill Our Lord, though indirectly.  And yet they didn't in the way that we think of now.  What has changed here is not the teaching, but an emphasis of blame, one wrongly misplaced by misunderstanding people to begin with.  In other words, the Church has spoken against wrongfully holding Jews accountable for Jesus' Crucifixion, most especially because they are not to blame any more than we are, for all have sinned.

By the way, your name is on your blog. 
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what he said.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='alberic' date='Dec 21 2005, 04:14 PM']This has troubled me about the pro-life movement....not enough attention is given to the death penalty. I am often confused with adamant pro-lifers (our President, for example) who fully support the death penalty. It's as if they are pro-life, but only under certain conditions. I don't buy the reasoning of the criminal mind/choice versus the innocence of the child. Life is life.....both criminal and child are created in God's image.

The Church is against the death penalty, but I believe there is some wiggle room allowed under certain circumstances. Isn't taking a life the same, no matter what the circumstances? Curious about this........
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In a letter written to Bishops last year Cardinal Ratzinger said that the death penalty does not carry as much weight as abortion or euthanasia in the moral realm This might help you somewhat. It has to do with the legitimacy of the death penalty, the innocence involved (or lacking in capital punishment cases), and even numbers of people killed.

Also, the Church isn't really against the death penalty when applicable but says it is a greater good not to use it. It's like a good action versus a virtuous action, the second is a greater good.

Also, as I mentioned before, intentionally killing an innocent life is a different type of action (intrinsically evil) than intentionally killing a guilty person.

[quote name='alberic' date='Dec 22 2005, 05:36 AM']I am unsure if "intention and matter" are all that different in the abortion/death penalty argument. The intent is to end life in both circumstances, in a deliberate and calculated act by another human being. While the "matter" of the two are different, that may be irrelevant.

The discussion is not about death or suicide, or being hit by a car, it is about one or more human beings deciding to kill another human being. That happens in abortion and that happens in execution. We are not to judge others, so that comment from Jesus immediately condemns the idea of capital punishment. The intent in both situations is the same - ending life. That is much different than accidental or heroic deaths. All I would like to see is the pro-life movement be more active in the anti-execution area.

Thanks for your comments.
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I think that to present the Church as against the death penalty is to simplify too much and to give the wrong impression.

The Church calls for mercy more often not because the opposite is necessarily evil, but rather because it hopes that clemency will lead to a culture of life.

To say the Church is against the death penalty is to say that it is intrinsically evil and misses the reason why Pope John Paul II called for mercy.

[Cam42]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 3 2006, 02:40 AM']Tina, this may be a little off topic, but I don't think that's quite accurate.

It's not wrong in our society (well, often it is, but not completely) and it's not a Church teaching that it should be rare.

Just hoping to bring clarification to a muddy thread. 
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Zach,

Your view is not completely correct either...your view is way to liberal in the application. Your understanding of the application is inconsistent with the catechetical understanding of today's advancements.

Please keep our disagreement out of this thread. We are trying to do something completely different here. We are trying to help Brandon understand the death penalty. If you want to help with that great, but please don't bring your opinion into this. It will only continue to confuse and will continue to muddy the thread.

[catholicinsd]

Should I any of you be charged with murder I wish a lawyer more opposed to DP than you are.

The Prosecuter that always seaches the DP or the Judge that always hand that cruel sentence down, than call himself a good Catholic, is not. He does not follow the teaching of the Church.

[Cam42]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Jan 3 2006, 09:41 AM']Should I any of you be charged with murder I wish a lawyer more opposed to DP than you are. 

The Prosecuter that always seaches the DP or the Judge that always hand that cruel sentence down, than call himself a good Catholic, is not. He does not follow the teaching of the Church.
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What????

[Guest Rick777]

?????