catholicinsd Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 The Prosecuter that always seeks the DP or the Judge that always hands down that cruel sentence down, then call themselves good Catholics, are not. They does not follow the teaching of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 [quote name='catholicinsd' date='Jan 3 2006, 09:51 AM']The Prosecuter that always seeks the DP or the Judge that always hands down that cruel sentence down, then call themselves good Catholics, are not. They does not follow the teaching of the Church. [right][snapback]844349[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Agreed, however, your view does not follow the current or traditional teaching of the Chruch, either. You are the other extreme of that view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 (edited) Maybe my typing is invisible, so I'm going to restate this. [quote]CCC # 2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, [b]if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor[/b]. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - [b]the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."[/b][/quote] Hopefully some will just read the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=44875&view=findpost&p=844209"]great links [/url] on the subject. I was presenting it differently than you might have zach in the shorter version because links seem useless. I should have posted the CCC# 2267 again. Many would agree that it is wrong to use in today's society because it has been misused. It is well within Catholic morality to support the death penalty. Opposition to the Death Penalty is a PRUDENTIAL decision that lies within the realm of CIVIL authority. There is more to the Death Penalty (in Catholic thought) than just "Protecting the society." From one of the great articles posted in a [url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/9-10-98/editorial.html"]linkage earlier: [/url] [quote]The primary effect of punishment is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation. Moreover, punishment has the effect of preserving public order and the safety of persons. Finally punishment has a medicinal value; as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender. (2266) I count three points of punishment. It is primarily to redress the disorder caused by the offense. Secondarily, it protects society against future offenses, and it can be an occasion for the offender to repent.[/quote] I think it is a good prudential decision to oppose the death penalty in our current Culture of Death. The Church is unequivocal in her Condemnation of killing the innocent and defenseless . . . the unborn are innocent and defenseless, therefore, killing them is INDISPUTABLY wrong. The Church believes in legitimate and just defense of society. This has always included Capital Punishment. We can disagree about whether or not we SHOULD apply it, but not that we CAN apply it. To say that we CANNOT possibly use Capital Punishment is to stand against the teaching tradition of the Church. To say that we shouldn't do it, because of X, Y, or Z, is however, allowable. I feel funny arguing this positition. I believe, with the Pope, that our society does not need to use the death penalty and, in order to promote the dignity of every human life, should NOT use the death penalty. However, like the Pope, I will not go against the constant tradition and teaching authority of the Church and suggest that the Death Penalty, is in and of itself, is immoral. Edited January 3, 2006 by jmjtina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertwoman Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Sorry, but I had a quick thought.... is the reason why the death penality is unacceptable to some people because it is seen as an act of vengance? Take for instance, how does the family of murder victims feel when the suspect kills himself/herself after murdering his victims? Is the family happy that he/she is dead none the less and is no longer a threat to society, or is the famliy mad because he/she was not brought to justice and is excuted by its hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 [quote name='desertwoman' date='Jan 3 2006, 11:21 AM']Sorry, but I had a quick thought.... is the reason why the death penality is unacceptable to some people because it is seen as an act of vengance? Take for instance, how does the family of murder victims feel when the suspect kills himself/herself after murdering his victims? Is the family happy that he/she is dead none the less and is no longer a threat to society, or is the famliy mad because he/she was not brought to justice and is excuted by its hands? [right][snapback]844407[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That is part of it, but not the overriding factor. The main reason that the death penalty is unacceptable today is because of what tina just posted....if non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. (cf. CCC #2267) Also well as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent." (cf. CCC #2267) That is why we are so opposed to the application of the death penalty in today's society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 [quote]I count three points of punishment. It is primarily to redress the disorder caused by the offense. Secondarily, it protects society against future offenses, and it can be an occasion for the offender to repent.[/quote] I thinik this is the best expression of my position I've read in this thread thus far. I am of the position that where a life is taken, a life should be given (eye for eye, the punishment should fit the crime) and hence the primary point as stated above. To preserve order, society needs justice and I am certain many would agree that several has in the past, well deserved execution. One can argue greatly the secondary point; protection of society. Include in your considerations the protection of other inmates? Harm does not need to be physical; an inmate can cause harm by his/her enduring example, or simply by communicating to others outside their prison. The fact that there it is never possible to completely eliminate the possibility of escape; death penalty is the only 100% certain way of protecting society. And the tertiary point is also important. Being on death row will give someone the combination of time to repent and reflect on the after life with the eventual certainty of a time of death, whereas in a jail cell for 50 years one might just hardened themselves until a sudden heartattack. Death row would actually force the perpetrator to face the reality of his/her afterlife; prison life would not. Also, a question (my apologies if it has been asked before); If executed in this life as punishment, might this release them of the severity of punishment in the afterlife? back to you Bob... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 carp killed another one... well, maybe there's hope? where's that bump button? Oh! There it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxKolbe Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Reading all of the posts and doing some research on the death penalty, I have come to the following conclusions.... 1. Those who say that we can be excummunicated for believing in the death penalty are inaccurate in their statements. The Church teaches that on the subjuct of the death penalty it is ok to believe in it, and its ok to disagree w/ it. The Church has taken the stance stating what has already been stated about the death penalty being ok if it is the only means left. If the government has done everything else to keep society safe from this person but somehow this person is still a liable threat, the church says it is ok for the death penalty to take affect 2. My own thoughts about the death penalty are this. I believe that it is more of a "punishment" to keep the person in prision for the rest of their life than to kill them off because not only does the person get off easy (per say), but he is not given the chance to repent for one and secondly, he spends for less time thinking about what's done. I also have come up with an idea to fix the the whole situation. Since I believe the death penalty can be used if it is the only means necessary, for instance an inmate continuously escapes from prision (whish has happened), than i belive we should take the death penalty into account. However the system now works like this: The person is convicted of a crime eligble for the death penalty and then a few weeks later is in the courtroom again while it is decided if he should get the death penalty or not.... that doesn't make any sense because you can't decide in two weeks if he is a liable threat to society or not, prision hasn't been given an opportunity. In my opinion, just as someone has a chance to go on trial again several years down the road, at that point, it should be decided through research of the person in prision if the death penalty should be used.... not two weeks after he is convicted. As Catholics however, there is no option as to what u believe about abortion... The church teaches that catholics must be against abortion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 3 2006, 08:40 AM']Zach, Your view is not completely correct either...your view is way to liberal in the application. Your understanding of the application is inconsistent with the catechetical understanding of today's advancements. Please keep our disagreement out of this thread. We are trying to do something completely different here. We are trying to help Brandon understand the death penalty. If you want to help with that great, but please don't bring your opinion into this. It will only continue to confuse and will continue to muddy the thread. [right][snapback]844336[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I shall, but just wanted to say I haven't given an opinion on the death penalty in here and how often it should be used. I'm a little bit less liberal in application than what is simply just and good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 [quote name='catholicinsd' date='Jan 3 2006, 08:41 AM']Should I any of you be charged with murder I wish a lawyer more opposed to DP than you are. The Prosecuter that always seaches the DP or the Judge that always hand that cruel sentence down, than call himself a good Catholic, is not. He does not follow the teaching of the Church. [right][snapback]844338[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Even I who argue with all on here will agree with you, unless he ends up with every possible extreme case on the face of the planet. I think the problem I have with your argument is that you see the death penalty as an intrinsically evil act, an act evil at all times, no matter what. If you don't, that's part of why I disagree with you...your arguments come off as such. Just for my own clarification in this, do you think it's an evil act to be avoided at all costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicinsd Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 5 2006, 02:06 PM'] Just for my own clarification in this, do you think it's an evil act to be avoided at all costs? [right][snapback]846956[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Heck yes, In America is used a racist tool, and in the Mid-east is an anti-woman tool. In China they will execute anybody who disagrees with Communism, so pray for the Church is China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 I was asking about the death penalty in general, outside of where it's being used. Since I'm assuming then too, how come God called for it to be used? It seems against His nature to have Him say that an intrinsically evil action is a good action for the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicinsd Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 7 2006, 02:02 PM']I was asking about the death penalty in general, outside of where it's being used. Since I'm assuming then too, how come God called for it to be used? It seems against His nature to have Him say that an intrinsically evil action is a good action for the state. [right][snapback]848810[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I think when they hand down the DP they are thinking only about this life, not the next. Those people who do the executing clearly are very shallow. That's why Pat Robertson is so crazy for saying that God kills people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Yes, but that's an argument not against the death penalty, but against modern application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicinsd Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 7 2006, 02:23 PM']Yes, but that's an argument not against the death penalty, but against modern application. [right][snapback]848835[/snapback][/right] [/quote] At any point in time, only the shallow executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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