Varg

[pat22]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 November 2009 - 12:09 AM' timestamp='1257656999' post='1998052']
No, he said God IS reality.
[/quote]
you're killing me.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='pat22' date='07 November 2009 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1257657416' post='1998060']
you're killing me.
[/quote]

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='pat22' date='07 November 2009 - 11:59 PM' timestamp='1257656399' post='1998044']
I don't think he does certainly know that, despite what he claims.

let me get this strait, your response to the question " how did god get here?", is " god is a different reality"?
[/quote]

I agree. I just want him to say that (provided that its true).

Speaking to the latter portion: No...God is not a different reality, rather he is reality itself, more appropriately He Being itself. Aquinas said that God's "esse" (to be/ or the act of being) and his "ens" (the state of being)are one and the same. All which exists is subsistent to His existence.

The point of all of this is that God was not created nor does He need creating. All arguments suggesting that something preceded God do so under the presupposition that this "higher than the higher being" exists. However, contextually speaking if God is existence itself then this being which caused Him would have to subsist in God's Being. Essentially, you can't take a step that goes before God because He is Being itself...anything before Him would presume to be existent. But as I have expressed that would not follow...because God is being itself and this "higher thing" would have to subsist in this "being" (or it wouldn't "be")

Just for clarification...This is under the presumption that God exists of course. I am seeking to answer that question of His not needing to "come from" anywhere.

[Varg]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='07 November 2009 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1257655653' post='1998039']
You have missed my point. I am trying to bring him back to the original question (mine anyway): Without a theory for the cause of the existence of the world how does he confidently subscribe to the notion that it is not God? Why does this particular hypothesis demand rejection? He responded by asking me how "God got here"; I gave Him a response to this as I understand it. He may disagree, that's fine. I wanted to follow up however by asking him how he knows with certainty that God doesn't exist.
[/quote]
I don't reject the idea of a god. I reject religion.

[Servus_Mariae]

Okay. Thanks for the clarification.

[pat22]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 04:47 AM' timestamp='1257673659' post='1998146']
I don't reject the idea of a god. I reject religion.
[/quote]
you should like, put that on the "about me" page. might help avoid confusion with others

[MIKolbe]

don't worry Varg, at least to me the "religion: no thanks" seems to lack confusion for me...but then.. i ain't from Tx.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 05:47 AM' timestamp='1257673659' post='1998146']
I don't reject the idea of a god. I reject religion.
[/quote]
So if you don't believe in religion, how do you learn about God?

[Varg]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='08 November 2009 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1257720049' post='1998426']
So if you don't believe in religion, how do you learn about God?
[/quote]I was Christian for almost ten years. Good enough?

[Didymus]

[quote name='Varg' date='07 November 2009 - 09:05 AM' timestamp='1257602712' post='1997696']
And if you're wondering where my name comes from, see Varg Vikernes (I only realised he was a neo-Nazi after I named my account after him, just so you know.
[/quote]
Typically, one would perhaps research and learn about that before naming their account.

[Varg]

It's a cool name, though. And distinctive

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='08 November 2009 - 08:08 AM' timestamp='1257628083' post='1997830']
Then why the certainty as to the rejection of theism? Agnosticism seems a more acceptable step...not asserting that God exists but not assuming He doesn't either.

Why the certainty God doesn't exist?
[/quote]
You're unlikely to get an answer to that! I've never seen a Cobra. Do I conclude that Cobra's don't exist and are just video special effects. Or do I leave the subject open and conclude that they probably exist but might not. I think atheists are actually agnostics in denial.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='07 November 2009 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1257628083' post='1997830']
Then why the certainty as to the rejection of theism? Agnosticism seems a more acceptable step...not asserting that God exists but not assuming He doesn't either.

Why the certainty God doesn't exist?
[/quote]
It's a poor tactic to try to default people into your religion because you think their logic is faulty.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='11 November 2009 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1257998098' post='2001070']
It's a poor tactic to try to default people into your religion because you think their logic is faulty.
[/quote]
Ours is better than all the other ones.

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='11 November 2009 - 10:54 PM' timestamp='1257998098' post='2001070']
It's a poor tactic to try to default people into your religion because you think their logic is faulty.
[/quote]

Agreed. I'm not trying to do this however. I was not trying to get him to make a jump from atheism to Catholicism. I just want to hear the reasoning behind a certainty in atheism. Notice...I didn't say "Catholicism is a better alternative to Atheism" I said Agnosticism is a better alternative to Atheism. Varg has clarified however that he does not reject the notion of God...so that's been to rest.

Your statement does arouse a new inquiry from me however...does this not undermine what you, Hassan, and Varg attempt in pointing out your perceived illogic of Christianity? I am not trying to submit an accusation here...I just want to know how you reconcile your above quote with pointing out what you deem to be illogical in Christianity.

[Fidei Defensor]

You make a valid point. While I cannot speak for others, I can say that personally, I argue against what I see as illogical in Christianity not to pull people away or bring them to atheism, but rather, out of my own need to seek answers about what I see. If I get a satisfactory answer, I won't dismiss it just because it doesn't fit with my world view.

[Servus_Mariae]

Makes sense. Fair enough.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 November 2009 - 03:45 AM' timestamp='1258044357' post='2001308']
You make a valid point. While I cannot speak for others, I can say that personally, I argue against what I see as illogical in Christianity not to pull people away or bring them to atheism, but rather, out of my own need to seek answers about what I see. If I get a satisfactory answer, I won't dismiss it just because it doesn't fit with my world view.
[/quote]
We should all be doing that. As a devout Christian I have to confess that there are many aspects of Catholic belief that don't sit well with my world view.

[Winchester]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='11 November 2009 - 10:54 PM' timestamp='1257998098' post='2001070']
It's a poor tactic to try to default people into your religion because you think their logic is faulty.
[/quote]
Hitler said the same thing.

[bonkers]

[quote name='pat22' date='07 November 2009 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1257575347' post='1997621']
just curious. do you claim to have a theory on how the world came to be?
[/quote]

You know, like a lot of atheists, we don't claim to know how the world came to be. It's a big universe, and perhaps our tiny little pee wee minds aren't big enough to comprehend it. I'm not opposed to the idea god *could* exist, but like many people, I think the burden is on the believing people to prove it, otherwise it's just another theory. At the very least if you claim to know something which is absolutely true you should at least substantiate it with some tangible evidence, not this disease called faith. I'm content not knowing, and more content not knowing than believing something for which there is no evidence.