God Isn't All-Good

[Varg]

Modesty=good, vanity+arrogance=bad. I think we all agree with that. So how come God is the most vain being in existance (or non-existance)? He demands to be worshipped and constantly told by everyone how great he is. If someone doesn't worship him they get punished. Vain? Yes, so he has bad qualities and is therefore not all-good and perfect.

Discuss.

[Servus_Mariae]

Firstly, if God is goodness itself (as we subscribe)then he is in need of no compliment from a human being for fulfillment. Therefore, God's creation of man was not for the end of self-glorification but of human glorification. We need not exist, yet He willed it so.

As far as God's demanding praise...I think that you are inflicting a persona on God that is a caricature of faulty Catholic Theology.

God is a despot who creates figurines to tell Him how great He is...those who fail can go to hell because He doesn't want them anymore and wants them to suffer for it.

Try to forget that presumption for a moment. See if this works:

God is goodness itself purely actualized and in need of nothing for fulfillment. Nonetheless, he creates intelligent beings in His image (being able to know and love) while extending His love (not demanded of Him)to these creatures; Allowing them to exercise their ability to know and love for a relationship with Him. In order for God to be truly good, this situation demands that these creature be able to reject Him. Is it love if I create a robot that is programmed to tell me how wonderful I am? I wouldn't think so. In God's goodness, he allows us to choose between a loving relationship with Him or not having a relationship with Him. He "demands" love for us in the way a lover demands to be loved by his beloved. If I truly loved a girl and did all I could to be with her...is that essentially arrogant? Am I doing something arrogant if I desire to have the affection of the one I love, all the while respecting her enough to allow her to reject me?

[Aloysius]

go bark up the Muslim tree . Our God died on a cross. for sinful men who hated him. Our God is the most humble and modest Man who ever walked the face of the earth.

our God doesn't demand praise, He asks our true love and offers it back in return. when we praise our God for His majesty, He gives us that majesty and divinizes us in return.

you have epically failed.

[Brother Adam]

The first two posters are right on. God does not demand to be worshiped, and God himself humbled himself to be born as a baby and placed in a manger. That is the most powerful statement of humility in the universe.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

God knows that we were made for Him, because He made us to live with Him in the greatness of His love. He demands our worship because He knows that we can only be fulfilled in loving Him. It's not that God is needy.

Parents' intentions in having children are rarely completely as they should be, but all good parents will report a desire to share themselves, to give of themselves, and to give life to another. Good parents don't demand to be loved because they want love but because they want their children to be loving. God demands that we do what is right in loving and serving Him as our Creator because He wants us to be just creatures and also because He knows that His love is the greatest thing for us to participate in. The more we give ourselves in love, the more capable we are of receiving love. If we are full of ourselves, we cannot receive God because we have no room for Him; if we empty ourselves of ourselves, we may receive God to our full potential.

On a tangent, in case you try to go there...modesty and humility are about knowing yourself. God is infinitely good. It is not vain for Him to acknowledge this, but it is a sign of His humility that He makes billions of children for Himself to share in that glory and even to die for their sake, as another poster pointed out.

[add]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 08:59 AM' timestamp='1257685180' post='1998163']
Modesty=good, vanity+arrogance=bad. I think we all agree with that. So how come God is the most vain being in existance (or non-existance)? He demands to be worshipped and constantly told by everyone how great he is. If someone doesn't worship him they get punished. Vain? Yes, so he has bad qualities and is therefore not all-good and perfect.

Discuss.
[/quote]

are you on drugs?

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='apparently' date='08 November 2009 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1257705068' post='1998253']
are you on drugs?
[/quote]

Let's not do that man.

[Varg]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='08 November 2009 - 08:52 AM' timestamp='1257688330' post='1998175']
Firstly, if God is goodness itself (as we subscribe)then he is in need of no compliment from a human being for fulfillment. Therefore, God's creation of man was not for the end of self-glorification but of human glorification.[/quote]Why does he need to be worshipped if he doesn't need fulfillment?


[quote]those who fail can go to hell because He doesn't want them anymore and wants them to suffer for it.
[/quote]Surely you realise that there's a contradiction between a loving god and a god who sends people to hell for who they are?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1257710659' post='1998299']
Why does he need to be worshipped if he doesn't need fulfillment?


Surely you realise that there's a contradiction between a loving god and a god who sends people to hell for who they are?
[/quote]

How can Hell [i]not [/i]exist with a loving God? Hell exists [i]because[/i] God is love. He gave us free will; he does not force us to be with him. We decide to turn from him and leave him. We deny good and accept evil. Men in Hell do not [i]want[/i] to be in Heaven, because that means conforming themselves to Truth, Goodness, and God Himself. God gives them what they want.

He doesn't need to be worshipped; looking at it from a Western point of view (I know Apo would give a differing Eastern view), God is good and deserving of all love. Worship is to give to God what he deserves; justice. It is of course an act of love, it is not simply legalistic. He deserves that love.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1257710659' post='1998299']
Why does he need to be worshipped if he doesn't need fulfillment?
[/quote]

He doesn't [i]need[/i] it, He [i]requires[/i] it. That is, He does not need it for Himself, but He requires it of us because we need to give worship. If you're going to debate with Christians, at least know what Christianity teaches.

[quote]Surely you realise that there's a contradiction between a loving god and a god who sends people to hell for who they are?[/quote]

How can one who completely rejects God dwell in His glorious presence? People send themselves to hell by rejecting Him, and God, because He loves and wishes His creatures to love, grants them free will. No Catholic has said that God decides who's going to hell. That is a Calvinist teaching.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1257710659' post='1998299']
Why does he need to be worshipped if he doesn't need fulfillment?[/quote]
God does not need man's worship; rather, it is man who needs to worship God, for man's nature finds its fulfillment only by being in communion with God.

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1257710659' post='1998299']
Surely you realise that there's a contradiction between a loving god and a god who sends people to hell for who they are?
[/quote]
God "sends" no one to hell. Those who experience hell chose that existence for themselves.

[Apotheoun]

"The glory of God is a living man; and the life of man consists in beholding God" (St. Irenaeus, [i]Adversus Haereses[/i], 4:20:7)

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='09 November 2009 - 12:52 AM' timestamp='1257688330' post='1998175']
Firstly, if God is goodness itself (as we subscribe)then he is in need of no compliment from a human being for fulfillment. Therefore, God's creation of man was not for the end of self-glorification but of human glorification. We need not exist, yet He willed it so.

As far as God's demanding praise...I think that you are inflicting a persona on God that is a caricature of faulty Catholic Theology.

God is a despot who creates figurines to tell Him how great He is...those who fail can go to hell because He doesn't want them anymore and wants them to suffer for it.

Try to forget that presumption for a moment. See if this works:

God is goodness itself purely actualized and in need of nothing for fulfillment. Nonetheless, he creates intelligent beings in His image (being able to know and love) while extending His love (not demanded of Him)to these creatures; Allowing them to exercise their ability to know and love for a relationship with Him. In order for God to be truly good, this situation demands that these creature be able to reject Him. Is it love if I create a robot that is programmed to tell me how wonderful I am? I wouldn't think so. In God's goodness, he allows us to choose between a loving relationship with Him or not having a relationship with Him. He "demands" love for us in the way a lover demands to be loved by his beloved. If I truly loved a girl and did all I could to be with her...is that essentially arrogant? Am I doing something arrogant if I desire to have the affection of the one I love, all the while respecting her enough to allow her to reject me?
[/quote]
Praise, glory, down on your knees, fear God. I think are mistranslations. Put the Old Testament away. Jesus (God as a man) wrote the New Testament to show that the words that should be used are "Love, Love, love. All you need is love, love is all you need." When I think of my relationship with God/Jesus I think of my relationship with my children. Do I want them to get down on their knees and tell me what a fantastic father I am? Would I tell them to go suffer if they refused my adoring love for them?
God is my Father and Jesus is my friend and brother. Both/he would get down on their knees and wash my feet and I for them/him.

[quote]
is a caricature of faulty Catholic Theology
[/quote]
That BTW is why I ask so many questions about 'infallible Church teaching'

Edited November 8, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[HisChildForever]

Varg is so cute when he acts serious.

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1257710659' post='1998299']
1.) Why does he need to be worshipped if he doesn't need fulfillment?


2.) Surely you realise that there's a contradiction between a loving god and a god who sends people to hell for who they are?
[/quote]

1.)As the others said above...God does not need to be worshiped. Using Mark's analogy, a father doesn't need the affection of his children, rather it is desired and quite passionately so. That there is a hell indicates precisely this point. God does not need to be adored by anyone and no ones presence is required in heaven; in fact, a soul is required not to be in heaven if he doesn't desire to be there.

2.) Pardon my not being quick on the uptake...but what do you mean by people sent to hell for "being who they are".

P.S.

I didn't realize which portion you were quoting...this part you quoted I said was the fallacious view of God. The part about people being sent to hell because God isn't getting what He wants out of them.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Servus_Mariae

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1257710659' post='1998299']
Why does he need to be worshipped if he doesn't need fulfillment?


Surely you realise that there's a contradiction between a loving god and a god who sends people to hell for who they are?
[/quote]
God doesn't send anyone to hell, people choose it all by themselves. You get there by your actions, not by being who you are.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 07:59 AM' timestamp='1257685180' post='1998163']
Modesty=good, vanity+arrogance=bad.
[/quote]

Your definitions are linguistic subjectives, not mathematical equations. You cannot say God is good or bad because you have no objective experience with God upon which to base your observations. In a world of atheistic relativism, your critique is more an extension of your opinion/agenda and less an extension of logical thought. You cannot make blanket statements about God because you are incapable of cataloguing individual believer's subjective experiences with God. You cannot even say "modesty=good" because this is subjective. You are assuming modesty on the part of the believe to mean what it is you are saying it means. Likewise with Vanity and Arrogance.

Please offer the subjective definitions of modesty, vanity, and arrogance.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='08 November 2009 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1257715859' post='1998367']
Praise, glory, down on your knees, fear God. I think are mistranslations. Put the Old Testament away.
[/quote]

So...Marcionism or simply Revelation-dualism?

We are to fear God, in the sense of awe and respect. Fear of God is consistent with, not contrary to, love of God.

[Marie-Therese]

Varg, consider this...

We state that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving. If He desired for us, His children, to turn our attention to anything else, anything LESS than that, He wouldn't be perfect; therefore He would not be God, since God cannot be anything less than perfect.

God does not demand of us; instead, He knows, as parents know, what is best for His children...and in the case of humanity, the best for us is to turn our attention to Him and to His teachings. Worship is a natural outpouring of appreciation and love for the Creator who has given so freely of such amazing love. Hell, as others have stated, is the opposite state, where people freely choose something other than what is best for them. If you, in society, break a rule, are you not punished for it? Is your breaking of that law not of your own choosing? Hell is prison, metaphorically and literally.

Part of your presumption is also that, for some reason, you believe God's laws are somehow not in the best interest of humanity. The Lord has instituted laws that are the best that humanity could hope for. For us to choose otherwise is foolishness on our part, not vindictiveness on His.

For the Lord to "demand" our worship and obedience is no different than a parent demanding the attention and obedience of their children. He is doing what is best for us. In the fall, man decided that he knew better than God. We continue to reap the consequences for that to this day.

[elizabeth09]

God is always good. If He was not good, then Mary and Jesus will not be Perfect.