Era Might Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='10 November 2009 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1257882800' post='1999696'] And I have no problem with martyrdom. But we are not obliged to give up our lives or the lives of others and defeating evil through violence is something God endorses several times throughout the Bible. God also calls for defense of lives through violence. Let's not forget that. [/quote] You say that "we are not obliged to give up our lives or the lives of others." And I agree. The gospel is not an "obligation," it is an invitation. But the Gospel does invite us to non-violence and martyrdom. The Gospel is not a philosophy for this world. It is an eschatological vocation. Christ never advocates violence, because his Kingdom is not of this world. "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it" (Matthew 10:39). The Old Testament is not our model. Christ is our model, because he has fulfilled the Old Testament, and the Old Testament must be read in light of Christ. That is why Our Lord would say, "You have heard it said [in the Old Testament]...but I say to you..." The Gospel does not call for violent defense of our lives, because that is a concern of this world, whereas the Gospel is concerned with the Eschaton. That is why I do not believe that the Gospel should ever be used to justify violent self-defense. If violent self-defense is going to be justified, then it can only be done so on natural grounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 November 2009 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1257883180' post='1999702'] Is Ghandi 'better' in any way because he was successful? [/quote] Better? This isn't a competition on who was "better." Gesh Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1257883350' post='1999707'] Better? This isn't a competition on who was "better." Gesh Jim [/quote] Well he's the example you keep returning to. Why him, and not any Catholic saint who lived a life of non-violence? There are hundreds of them, maybe thousands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1257881921' post='1999679'] Never heard of him, but I'll check him out. Hope he isn't just a legend, ala St Christopher. Jim [/quote] +J.M.J.+ seriously? you've never heard of him? he was the saint who started the whole thing of consecrating yourself to Mary? http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-louis-marie-grignion-de-montfort/ Profile Born poor. Studied in Paris, France, and ordained in 1700. While a seminarian he delighted in researching the writings of Church Fathers, Doctors and Saints as they related to the Blessed Virgin Mary, to whom he was singularly devoted. Under Mary’s inspiration, he founded the Congregation of the Daughters of Divine Wisdom, a religious institute of women devoted to the care of the desititute. During this work, he began his apostolate of preaching the Rosary and authentic Marian devotion. He preached so forcefully and effectively against the errors of Jansenism that he was expelled from several dioceses in France. In Rome Pope Clement XI conferred on him the title and authority of Missionary Apostolic, which enabled him to continue his apostolate after returning to France. He preached Mary everywhere and to everyone. A member of the Third Order of Saint Dominic, Saint Louis was one of the greatest apostles of the Rosary in his day, and by means his miraculously inspiring book, The Secret of the Rosary, he is still so today; the most common manner of reciting the Rosary is the method that originated with Saint Louis’s preaching. In 1715, he founded a missionary band known as the Company of Mary. His greatest contribution to the Church and world is Total Consecration to the Blessed Virgin. He propagated this in his day by preaching and after his own death by his other famous book True Devotion to Mary. Consecration to Mary is for Saint Louis the perfect manner of renewing one’s baptismal promises. His spirituality has been espoused by millions, especially Pope John Paul II, who has consecrated not only himself but every place he has visited as pope. In True Devotion to Mary, Saint Louis prophesied that the army of souls consecrated to Mary will be Her instrument in defeating the Devil and his Antichrist. As Satan gains power in the world, so much more shall the new Eve triumph over him and crush his head. The cause for his declaration as a Doctor of the Church is now being pursued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 +J.M.J.+ This is getting moved to the debate table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Lil Red' date='10 November 2009 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1257883457' post='1999709'] +J.M.J.+ seriously? you've never heard of him? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img] he was the saint who started the whole thing of consecrating yourself to Mary? [url="http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-louis-marie-grignion-de-montfort/"]http://saints.sqpn.c...on-de-montfort/[/url] Profile Born poor. Studied in Paris, France, and ordained in 1700. While a seminarian he delighted in researching the writings of Church Fathers, Doctors and Saints as they related to the Blessed Virgin Mary, to whom he was singularly devoted. Under Mary's inspiration, he founded the Congregation of the Daughters of Divine Wisdom, a religious institute of women devoted to the care of the desititute. During this work, he began his apostolate of preaching the Rosary and authentic Marian devotion. He preached so forcefully and effectively against the errors of Jansenism that he was expelled from several dioceses in France. In Rome Pope Clement XI conferred on him the title and authority of Missionary Apostolic, which enabled him to continue his apostolate after returning to France. He preached Mary everywhere and to everyone. A member of the Third Order of Saint Dominic, Saint Louis was one of the greatest apostles of the Rosary in his day, and by means his miraculously inspiring book, The Secret of the Rosary, he is still so today; the most common manner of reciting the Rosary is the method that originated with Saint Louis's preaching. In 1715, he founded a missionary band known as the Company of Mary. His greatest contribution to the Church and world is Total Consecration to the Blessed Virgin. He propagated this in his day by preaching and after his own death by his other famous book True Devotion to Mary. Consecration to Mary is for Saint Louis the perfect manner of renewing one's baptismal promises. His spirituality has been espoused by millions, especially Pope John Paul II, who has consecrated not only himself but every place he has visited as pope. In True Devotion to Mary, Saint Louis prophesied that the army of souls consecrated to Mary will be Her instrument in defeating the Devil and his Antichrist. As Satan gains power in the world, so much more shall the new Eve triumph over him and crush his head. The cause for his declaration as a Doctor of the Church is now being pursued. [/quote] Where does it say he used non-violence to overcome oppression for his people? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 November 2009 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1257883440' post='1999708'] Well he's the example you keep returning to. Why him, and not any Catholic saint who lived a life of non-violence? There are hundreds of them, maybe thousands. [/quote] I return to him because he is an example of how non-violence can be used successfuly. Non-violence and pacifism are two different things. However, I do have a saint that just came to mind, but many people don't know about him. Saint Isaac Jogues. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1257883816' post='1999717'] I return to him because he is an example of how non-violence can be used successfuly. Non-violence and pacifism are two different things. However, I do have a saint that just came to mind, but many people don't know about him. Saint Isaac Jogues. Jim [/quote] My original point though, is whether or not it matters if it's successful or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Saint Therese' date='09 November 2009 - 11:19 AM' timestamp='1257783575' post='1998787'] Because our country was founded on the principle that the government should be subservient to the people. Our right to bear arms ensures that we will always be able to enforce our ideal of government serving teh people instead of the other way around. In other words, the idea is that the government exists at the will of the people. [/quote]The government has control of the army. A couple of Average Joes with Glocks aren't going to be able to overthrow the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='08 November 2009 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1257726863' post='1998501'] Because using the broadsword to defend kith and kin is a bit outdated. [/quote] If I could choose to have one weapon in my house it would be a big shiny broadsword with the words "This blade spills your blood for Odin" written on it in Viking runes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 November 2009 - 04:13 PM' timestamp='1257884013' post='1999720'] My original point though, is whether or not it matters if it's successful or not? [/quote] In the point I was making at the time, success was the purpose of using Gandhi as an example in the use of non-violence. Jim Edited November 10, 2009 by JimR-OCDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='10 November 2009 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1257884217' post='1999726'] The government has control of the army. A couple of Average Joes with Glocks aren't going to be able to overthrow the government. [/quote] No, but get a populace in support of guerrilla fighters and they will. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1257884616' post='1999734'] In the point I was making at the time, success was the purpose of using Gandhi as an example in the use of non-violence. Jim [/quote] No, you asserted that it was more 'spiritually mature'. If it is, then does his success or failure make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1257884742' post='1999737'] No, but get a populace in support of guerrilla fighters and they will. Jim [/quote]No, they won't. It's unlikely that guerrillas can beat trained soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='10 November 2009 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1257884820' post='1999739'] No, they won't. It's unlikely that guerrillas can beat trained soldiers. [/quote] Tell that to the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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