Fort Hood Suspect Charged With Murder

[Era Might]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1258070351' post='2001507']
He would be tried as a terrorist.[/quote]
But a terrorist is a terrorist, whether they are motivated by religion, politics, etc.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1258070485' post='2001509']
But being a "terrorist" has nothing to do with a person's religion. A terrorist is a terrorist, whether they are motivated by religion, politics, etc.
[/quote]

No one is arguing that. I am saying that in this particular case, he would be tried as a terrorist if the politically correct liberals acknowledged Islam as his motivation.

[Era Might]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1258070695' post='2001512']
No one is arguing that. I am saying that in this particular case, he would be tried as a terrorist if the politically correct liberals acknowledged Islam as his motivation.
[/quote]
I don't think that having Islam as his motivation would make him a terrorist. What would make him a terrorist would be acts of terrorism. A person can kill another person for religious reasons without being a "terrorist."

What worries me is that in trying to determine a possible religious motivation, we will reinforce the idea of "hate crimes."

[zunshynn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1258069945' post='2001503']
Really? Then how do you explain Al-Qaeda, a terrorist group that is motivated by its religion?

[b]Al-Qaeda is an international terrorist network led by Osama bin Laden. It seeks to rid Muslim countries of what it sees as the profane influence of the West and replace their governments with fundamentalist Islamic regimes.[/b]

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9126/
[/quote]

What's your point? There's nothing to "explain" about Al-Qaeda being a terrorist group motivated by it's religion. They are a terrorist group. They are motivated by religion. But they are not terrorists "because" they are motivated by religion. They are terrorists because of what they do, not because of why they do it.

A secular terrorist group are terrorists for the same reason. Because of the systematic violence that they carry out, not because of whatever reasoning they have behind it. FARC-EP in Columbia, for example, is not a terrorist group because of what they believe in, but because they systematically murder, kidnap and torture innocent people.

Edited November 13, 2009 by zunshynn

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1258071069' post='2001517']
I don't think that having Islam as his motivation would make him a terrorist. What would make him a terrorist would be acts of terrorism. A person can kill another person for religious reasons without being a "terrorist."

What worries me is that in trying to determine his "motivation," we will be furthering the idea of "hate crimes."
[/quote]

Islamic Fascism as his [i]motivation[/i] would make him a Islamic terrorist, such as groups like Al Qaeda. His being a Islamic Fascist/Terrorist would make him an enemy of the United States and a traitor.

Edited November 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Era Might]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1258071543' post='2001520']
Islam Fascism as his motivation would make him a Islamic terrorist, such as groups like Al Qaeda. His being a Islamic Fascist/Terrorist would make him an enemy of the United States and a traitor.
[/quote]
Being an "Islamic Fascist" is not considered a crime, as far as I know. Suppose that he believes in "Islamic Fascism," but did not commit any crimes based on those beliefs. Would the government put him in prison for his beliefs? I don't think so. Thus, in determining whether he will charged as a terrorist, the ideological motivation for his acts would be irrelevant to his court case. The only relevant question for the court is whether he committed acts of terrorism, not whether those acts were based on "Islamic Fascism" or any other ideology.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='12 November 2009 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1258071193' post='2001518']
What's your point? There's nothing to "explain" about Al-Qaeda being a terrorist group motivated by it's religion. They are a terrorist group. They are motivated by religion. But they are not terrorists "because" they are motivated by religion. They are terrorists because of what they do, not because of why they do it. [/quote]


What are you talking about? The Islamic Terrorist are motivated by religion to be terrorist, bu there not terrorists "because" they are motivated by religion? What you're saying makes no sense. They are terrorist because of what they do and why they do it.

[quote name='zunshynn' date='12 November 2009 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1258071193' post='2001518']A secular terrorist group are terrorists for the same reason. Because of the systematic violence that they carry out, not because of whatever reasoning they have behind it. FARC-EP in Columbia, for example, is not a terrorist group because of what they believe in, but because they systematically murder, kidnap and torture innocent people.
[/quote]

I would also point out a secular terrorist should be tried just as any other terrorist. The victims of Islamic Terrorist should not receive more justice than victims of any other kind of terrorist. That is what is forgotten in "hate crime" laws.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='12 November 2009 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1258071193' post='2001518']
They are terrorists because of what they do, not because of why they do it.
[/quote]

What a ridiculous statement.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1258071543' post='2001520']
Islamic Fascism as his [i]motivation[/i] would make him a Islamic terrorist, such as groups like Al Qaeda. His being a Islamic Fascist/Terrorist would make him an enemy of the United States and a traitor.
[/quote]

EXACTLY!!! Glad to see someone else on here gets it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:24 PM' timestamp='1258071862' post='2001525']
Being an "Islamic Fascist" is not considered a crime, as far as I know. Suppose that he believes in "Islamic Fascism," but did not commit any crimes based on those beliefs. Would the government put him in prison for his beliefs? I don't think so. Thus, in determining whether he will charged as a terrorist, the motivation for his acts would be irrelevant to his court case. The only relevant question for the court is whether he committed acts of terrorism, not whether those acts were based on "Islamic Fascism" or any other ideology.
[/quote]

Being a Islamic Fascist, ie a member or sympathizer of a Terror Group(s) is a crime of some sort. Do you actually believe someone who is a member or sympathizer of Al qaeda or a like group is not breaking some type of law? For this man his acts are acts of treason and terror. His motivation was Islamic Radicalism.

[CatherineM]

Just from a litigation point of view, I doubt the presiding judge advocate will allow his religion to be mentioned in court because unfortunately that would be viewed as intentionally inflaming the jury against the defendant because of his religion rather than the acts he is accused of committing.

I'm sure prosecutors are allowed to discuss the religion of priests accused of sexual abuse, or a pro-life person on trial for trespassing or worse, but it doesn't work the other direction.

[Era Might]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1258072631' post='2001531']
Being a Islamic Fascist, ie a member or sympathizer of a Terror Group(s) is a crime of some sort. Do you actually believe someone who is a member or sympathizer of Al qaeda or a like group is not breaking some type of law? For this man his acts are acts of treason and terror. His motivation was Islamic Radicalism.
[/quote]
Do you believe that "sympathizers" with Al Qaeda, who only sympathize in ideology, but have not committed any criminal acts, can be put in prison? I'm not aware of any laws in the United States that criminalize thoughts/opinions/ideology.

If a person hates the United States and wants it to be destroyed, can the government put them in prison merely for that belief, without that person having committed any criminal act?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1258072936' post='2001534']
Do you believe that "sympathizers" with Al Qaeda, who only sympathize in ideology, but have not committed any criminal acts, can be put in prison? I'm not aware of any laws in the United States that criminalize thoughts/opinions/ideology.

If a person hates the United States and wants it to be destroyed, can the government put them in prison merely for that belief, without that person having committed any criminal act?
[/quote]

They can be put in prison for conspiracy (if, of course, there is evidence for this).

[Era Might]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 07:46 PM' timestamp='1258073184' post='2001538']
They can be put in prison for conspiracy (if, of course, there is evidence for this).
[/quote]
Conspiracy is an act. I'm referring solely to ideology. I'm assuming that the hypothetical person has not committed any criminal act, but they do believe in an ideology. For example, if a person says publicly, "I support Al Quaeda in ideology," can they be put in prison for that? I don't think they can be put in prison for that.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1258072936' post='2001534']
Do you believe that "sympathizers" with Al Qaeda, who only sympathize in ideology, but have not committed any criminal acts, can be put in prison? I'm not aware of any laws in the United States that criminalize thoughts/opinions/ideology.

If a person hates the United States and wants it to be destroyed, can the government put them in prison merely for that belief, without that person having committed any criminal act?
[/quote]

To put this in perspective lets pretend it's 1941 and you asked "Do you believe that "sympathizers" with the Nazis, who only sympathize in ideology, but have not committed any criminal acts, can be put in prison?

My answer then and my answer now is yes, so long as there is evidence, because sedition is a crime.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:51 PM' timestamp='1258073514' post='2001539']
Conspiracy is an act. I'm referring solely to ideology. I'm assuming that the hypothetical person has not committed any criminal act, but they do believe in an ideology. For example, if a person says publicly, "I support Al Quaeda in ideology," can they be put in prison for that? I don't think they can be put in prison for that.
[/quote]

That ideology is the destruction and down fail of the American Government, her people and the mass murder of those who will not become the terrorists version of Islamic.

Edited November 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Era Might]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1258073689' post='2001540']
To put this in perspective lets pretend it's 1941 and you asked "Do you believe that "sympathizers" with the Nazis, who only sympathize in ideology, but have not committed any criminal acts, can be put in prison?

My answer then and my answer now is yes, so long as there is evidence, because sedition is a crime.
[/quote]
You are essentially saying that the US government can imprison people for their beliefs. I don't see how this is in accord with the US Constitution. And I would be curious to see the exact laws that criminalize ideology, because I am not aware of any.

[dominicansoul]

I find it amazing that everyone tip toes around calling this guy a terrorist just because he's a muslim...had he been a white Christian man, the media would have crucified our beliefs and our values in a matter of a 60 second news brief...
let's quit playing dumb and see this for what it really is...another islamic extremist murdered American Soldiers in an act against America and in support of everything Al Quaeda stands for...for those who feel it is petty to concentrate on this rather than focusing on those who died, I feel we do a terrible injustice to those killed if we continue to ignore the obvious reasons why they were massacred...

...this is another 9/11 that could have been prevented, had those in authority not been afraid of being politically incorrect...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1258073888' post='2001542']
You are essentially saying that the US government can imprison people for their beliefs. I don't see how this is in accord with the Constitution. And I would be curious to see the exact laws that criminalize ideology, because I am not aware of any.
[/quote]

No Sir that is not what I am saying. I am saying that cooperation with the Enemy in a time of war is a act of treason and sedition which are indeed crimes, laws which are completely Constitution.

The term that must be defined here is "belief", what do you mean by that exactly? Belief could be writings and speech. They could not speak or write about their Terrorist Ideology because that would encourage others to commit acts of terror. Because that is sedition.

Edited November 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Era Might]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1258074458' post='2001550']
No Sir that is not what I am saying. I am saying that cooperation with the Enemy in a time of war is a act of treason and sedition which are indeed crimes, laws which are completely Constitution.

The term that must be defined here is "belief", what do you mean by that exactly? Belief could be writings and speech. They could not speak or write about their Terrorist Ideology because that would encourage others to commit acts of terror. Because that is sedition.
[/quote]
Who defines the "enemy," and what is "cooperation with the enemy"? Are Americans required to agree with the government's definition of "enemies"? Are Americans required to oppose the ideologies which the government opposes? If an American believes that the government is involved in an unjust war, and that American believes that the other country is right to defend itself, can that American be punished as a traitor? These are general questions, I'm not asking them of any specific situation.

Anyway, this discussion is pretty much off topic, though I think it's related in a roundabout way. Just to get back to my original point, there is no law against being an "Islamic Fascist." A terrorist is a terrorist, regardless of his ideology. As far as I am aware, there is no separate law for "Islamic terrorists" than for any other terrorists. The courts are concerned with whether a person has committed terrorist acts; the courts are not concerned with the ideologies that motivated those acts. If we start focusing on ideological motivation in court cases, then we will be reinforcing the idea of "hate laws."

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']
Who is the "enemy," and what is "cooperation with the enemy"? Are Americans now required to agree with the government's definition of "enemies"? Are Americans now required to oppose the ideologies which the government opposes? If I believe that the government is involved in an unjust war, and I support the other country's right to defend itself, am I a traitor?[/quote]


What the h### are you talking about? I am talking about Islamic Fascist Ideology do you understand what that is at all? It is nothing close to what you may or may not believe. Islamic Fascist Ideology is the complete destruction of the United States, the birth of a World Wide Islamic Order and the death of any one that does not agree with the Islamic Fascist Ideology.

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']Just to get back to my original point, there is no law against being an "Islamic Fascist."[/quote]

There is a ongoing war with Islamic Fascist, which means they are the enemies of the United States, but that is unimportant to many these days.

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']A terrorist is a terrorist, regardless of his ideology. [/quote]

A terrorist is a terrorist, but ideology is very important because it is the motivation.

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']As far as I am aware, there is no separate law for "Islamic terrorists" than for any other terrorists. [/quote]

I have not said that there is a separate law. I have said we are currently in a ongoing war with Islamic Fascist. And they will continue to fight even if we stop or deny the reality of this war.


[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']The courts are concerned with whether a person has committed terrorist acts; the courts are not concerned with the ideologies that motivated those acts.
[/quote]

Courts are very concerned about motivation. Not being able to show motivation for a crime has at times allowed the accused to go free.