Imam Says He Didn't Pressure Hasan

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='17 November 2009 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1258485738' post='2004312']
You cannot talk bad about Islam in front of Hassan, even if what you say is the truth. Islam is the religion of peace! Get with it.
[/quote]
Alas, he is afflicted with "head in the sand" complex when it comes to Islam.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='17 November 2009 - 02:25 PM' timestamp='1258485929' post='2004313']
Alas, he is afflicted with "head in the sand" complex when it comes to Islam.
[/quote]

I never did figure out why.

[Socrates]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='16 November 2009 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1258402870' post='2003837']
It goes beyond "his" religious beliefs though:

[b]He showed the journalist his correspondence with Hasan but would not provide it to the Post. He said Hasan questioned the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and said [u]the Army psychiatrist cited Islamic law that demanded "that what America was doing should be confronted."[/u][/b]

According to Islamic law, his actions were justified.
[/quote]
Don't confuse a liberal with the facts.
We all know militant Islam does not exist, but is a mirage created by the Bush administration.
Islam is all about peace and love and fluffy bunnies.

Stop being such a belligerent little blonde and get with the program!

[Jesus_lol]

but then who are all the bad guys in 24?

[Hassan]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='17 November 2009 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1258482528' post='2004287']
of course, you fail to see the errors in islamic extremism, but you are always quick to point out the errors of Christians... [/QUOTE]

I fail to see the errors in Islamic extremism?

I'm happy to point out the errors in the actions of Christians or Muslims. However the generalizations and ad hoc attempts to link widely divergent global trends into monolithic forces would be as ridiculous as trying to make generalizations about Christians or Chritianity from the actions of Bosnian Serbs, or trying to draw close associations between Serbian extremism, the KKK and the IRA. If in response to the current trial of the President of the Bosnian Serbs I posted a link to the inane rantings of a Klansmin you would probably find many rhetorical parallels, but establishing a substantive link between the rantings the grand imperial wizard and the actions of Radovan Karadzic would be much more difficult.



[QUOTE]And how many women and children have been raped and slaughtered by Muslims?
Why don't you call out the errors of Muslims who propagate terror, using their very religion as an excuse??[/QUOTE]

I have, I have said as much to you and on threads you have posted on. If you can't figure out that I am not ok with the violent actions of Muslim terrorist groups then you have a problem paying attention.


[QUOTE]iawtc
[/quote]

Blind leading the blind.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' date='17 November 2009 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1258490591' post='2004357']
I fail to see the errors in Islamic extremism?

I'm happy to point out the errors in the actions of Christians or Muslims. However the generalizations and ad hoc attempts to link widely divergent global trends into monolithic forces would be as ridiculous as trying to make generalizations about Christians or Chritianity from the actions of Bosnian Serbs, or trying to draw close associations between Serbian extremism, the KKK and the IRA. If in response to the current trial of the President of the Bosnian Serbs I posted a link to the inane rantings of a Klansmin you would probably find many rhetorical parallels, but establishing a substantive link between the rantings the grand imperial wizard and the actions of Radovan Karadzic would be much more difficult.
[/quote]


What percentage of 1.2 billion in Islam represent those divergent global trends?

[url="http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/05/how-many-islamists"]SOURCE[/url]

[b]Hamas victory:[/b] In Palestinian Authority elections, the Islamist terrorist group Hamas won 44 percent of the popular vote. (January 26, 2006)

[b]Margaret Nydell:[/b] "The militant Muslim groups cannot represent even 1 percent of Muslims in the United States (that would be 50,000) or the world (that would be 15 million). If that were true, we would be overrun with wild-eyed fanatics. Islamists who resort to violence add up to less than one tenth of 1 percent." (Understanding Arabs: A Guide for Modern Times, 4th ed., International Press, 2005, p. 104) Comment: Nydell makes the inexplicable mistake of equating Islamists with terrorists, as though all of the former are the latter. And this from a professor at Georgetown University. Some unsolicited advice for her: stick closer to linguistics, in which you got your degree, and stay clear away from politics.

[b]
Husain Haqqani, author of Pakistan:[/b] Between Mosque and Military (Washington, DC: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 2005) writes on p. 1: "Pakistan's Islamists made their strongest showing in a general election during parliamentary polls held in October 2002, when they secured 11.1 percent of the popular vote."

[b]British polls:[/b] Two just-released opinion surveys of British Muslims suggest a very substantial Islamist percentage. Of the many questions asked, perhaps the most revealing in this regard is the one whether the respondent agrees that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end." An astounding 1/3rd of those asked did agree with this statement. (Anthony King, "One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists," The Daily Telegraph, July 23, 2005)

[b]John O'Sullivan:[/b] "Estimates of the number of (generally young male) Muslims who are actively sympathetic to Islamism are inevitably … speculative. The usual guess is that 15 percent of the Muslim population is sympathetic to Islamism and a much smaller percentage, say 4 percent, actively so." ("The Islamic Republic of Holland," National Review, July 18, 2005)

[b]Hisham Kabbani, head of Islamic Supreme Council of America:[/b] 5 to 10 percent of American Muslims are extremists. (Steven Vincent, "Where Are the Moderate Muslims?" The American Enterprise, April/May 2005, p. 27).

[b]Kamal Nawash, head, Free Muslims Against Terrorism:[/b] "as many as 50 percent of Muslims around the world support the goals of the extremists." ("O'Reilly Factor," Fox News Channel, Aug. 5, 2004)

[b]
Daniel Yankelovich, pollster:[/b] At one extreme of Muslim society "are the hate-America Islamist fundamentalists, who are the most militant and totalitarian. The magnitude and influence of this group varies enormously. For example, in Indonesia this group has doubled, tripled, or quadrupled over the last few years. I would estimate that this group averages about 10% of all Muslims, with enormous variation from one Muslim country to another and particular strength in Arab nations." ("Cutting the Lifeline of Terror: What's Next After Iraq?" July 14, 2004, p. 20) (May 17, 2005)

[b]Jordanian elections:[/b] In the Jordanian parliamentary elections of 1989, the Muslim Brotherhood "attained 30 percent of the seats, in addition to independent Islamists who won 10 seats. This was the highest percentage of seats ever gained by Islamists in Jordan or anywhere else in the region." (Angel M. Rabasa, et al., The Muslim World After 9/11, Santa Monica: RAND, 2004, p. 116)

[b]B Raman, former head of counter-terrorism for Indian intelligence, the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW):[/b] The U.S. government should focus on reforming Islamist madrasas; there are currently up to one million madrasas in Pakistan , a minority of which, perhaps 15 percent, indoctrinate their pupils with Islamist vitriol and militancy. ("Expert tells US to focus on Pak madrasas," Times of India, October 31, 2003)

[b]Israeli elections:[/b] "The northern faction of the fundamentalist Islamic Movement retained its firm control on [the Israeli Arab town of] Umm el-Fahm … in local elections that were otherwise marked by fragmentation in the Arab sector. The movement's candidate in Umm el-Fahm, Sheikh Hashem Abdel Rahman, won 75 percent of the votes compared to around 23% for Said Agbariya, who headed a coalition of predominantly secular political groups." (David Rudge, "Strong Islamic sentiment drives Arab elections," The Jerusalem Post, October 30, 2003)

[b]
Indonesian data:[/b] "Survey and election results show that the number of Islamists, Muslims who want an Islamic state, is no more than 15 percent of the total Indonesian Muslim population of 200 million. The remaining 85 percent are moderately or strongly opposed to an Islamic state. Most important and least recognized in the current climate of fear in the non-Muslim world, Islamism as a political ideology appears to be losing ground in Indonesia, not gaining it." (R. William Liddle and Saiful Mujani, "The Real Face of Indonesian Islam," The New York Times, October 11, 2003)

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='17 November 2009 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1258491876' post='2004369']
What percentage of 1.2 billion in Islam represent those divergent global trends?

[url="http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/05/how-many-islamists"]SOURCE[/url]

[b]Hamas victory:[/b] In Palestinian Authority elections, the Islamist terrorist group Hamas won 44 percent of the popular vote. (January 26, 2006)

[b]Margaret Nydell:[/b] "The militant Muslim groups cannot represent even 1 percent of Muslims in the United States (that would be 50,000) or the world (that would be 15 million). If that were true, we would be overrun with wild-eyed fanatics. Islamists who resort to violence add up to less than one tenth of 1 percent." (Understanding Arabs: A Guide for Modern Times, 4th ed., International Press, 2005, p. 104) Comment: Nydell makes the inexplicable mistake of equating Islamists with terrorists, as though all of the former are the latter. And this from a professor at Georgetown University. Some unsolicited advice for her: stick closer to linguistics, in which you got your degree, and stay clear away from politics.

[b]
Husain Haqqani, author of Pakistan:[/b] Between Mosque and Military (Washington, DC: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 2005) writes on p. 1: "Pakistan's Islamists made their strongest showing in a general election during parliamentary polls held in October 2002, when they secured 11.1 percent of the popular vote."

[b]British polls:[/b] Two just-released opinion surveys of British Muslims suggest a very substantial Islamist percentage. Of the many questions asked, perhaps the most revealing in this regard is the one whether the respondent agrees that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end." An astounding 1/3rd of those asked did agree with this statement. (Anthony King, "One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists," The Daily Telegraph, July 23, 2005)

[b]John O'Sullivan:[/b] "Estimates of the number of (generally young male) Muslims who are actively sympathetic to Islamism are inevitably … speculative. The usual guess is that 15 percent of the Muslim population is sympathetic to Islamism and a much smaller percentage, say 4 percent, actively so." ("The Islamic Republic of Holland," National Review, July 18, 2005)

[b]Hisham Kabbani, head of Islamic Supreme Council of America:[/b] 5 to 10 percent of American Muslims are extremists. (Steven Vincent, "Where Are the Moderate Muslims?" The American Enterprise, April/May 2005, p. 27).

[b]Kamal Nawash, head, Free Muslims Against Terrorism:[/b] "as many as 50 percent of Muslims around the world support the goals of the extremists." ("O'Reilly Factor," Fox News Channel, Aug. 5, 2004)

[b]
Daniel Yankelovich, pollster:[/b] At one extreme of Muslim society "are the hate-America Islamist fundamentalists, who are the most militant and totalitarian. The magnitude and influence of this group varies enormously. For example, in Indonesia this group has doubled, tripled, or quadrupled over the last few years. I would estimate that this group averages about 10% of all Muslims, with enormous variation from one Muslim country to another and particular strength in Arab nations." ("Cutting the Lifeline of Terror: What's Next After Iraq?" July 14, 2004, p. 20) (May 17, 2005)

[b]Jordanian elections:[/b] In the Jordanian parliamentary elections of 1989, the Muslim Brotherhood "attained 30 percent of the seats, in addition to independent Islamists who won 10 seats. This was the highest percentage of seats ever gained by Islamists in Jordan or anywhere else in the region." (Angel M. Rabasa, et al., The Muslim World After 9/11, Santa Monica: RAND, 2004, p. 116)

[b]B Raman, former head of counter-terrorism for Indian intelligence, the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW):[/b] The U.S. government should focus on reforming Islamist madrasas; there are currently up to one million madrasas in Pakistan , a minority of which, perhaps 15 percent, indoctrinate their pupils with Islamist vitriol and militancy. ("Expert tells US to focus on Pak madrasas," Times of India, October 31, 2003)

[b]Israeli elections:[/b] "The northern faction of the fundamentalist Islamic Movement retained its firm control on [the Israeli Arab town of] Umm el-Fahm … in local elections that were otherwise marked by fragmentation in the Arab sector. The movement's candidate in Umm el-Fahm, Sheikh Hashem Abdel Rahman, won 75 percent of the votes compared to around 23% for Said Agbariya, who headed a coalition of predominantly secular political groups." (David Rudge, "Strong Islamic sentiment drives Arab elections," The Jerusalem Post, October 30, 2003)

[b]
Indonesian data:[/b] "Survey and election results show that the number of Islamists, Muslims who want an Islamic state, is no more than 15 percent of the total Indonesian Muslim population of 200 million. The remaining 85 percent are moderately or strongly opposed to an Islamic state. Most important and least recognized in the current climate of fear in the non-Muslim world, Islamism as a political ideology appears to be losing ground in Indonesia, not gaining it." (R. William Liddle and Saiful Mujani, "The Real Face of Indonesian Islam," The New York Times, October 11, 2003)
[/quote]
+1,+1,+1

[Winchester]

I think most Muslims would rather just pretend to love Allah and get on with their day. Just like most Christians. Just like most Jews. But the extremists are fairly convincing. Victory lies in similar paths as what defeated Russia: McDonald's.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' date='17 November 2009 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1258494629' post='2004411']
I think most Muslims would rather just pretend to love Allah and get on with their day. Just like most Christians. Just like most Jews. But the extremists are fairly convincing. Victory lies in similar paths as what defeated Russia: McDonald's.
[/quote]

Yes.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='17 November 2009 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1258484060' post='2004303']
I do not see anything in my comment that indicates that I have endorsed anything and everything that has ever been done by the Serbian nation or by individual Serbs, but I stand by my comments, for I pray that Serbia remain strong, so that the Serbian people never again fall into Dhimmitude to an Islamic power.
[/quote]


I post a picture of individuals who I identify as paramilitary Bosnian Serbs. To which you reply

[i]Yeah, the Serbians do not need a military . . . I mean it is not like they were Dhimmis at one time. Oh wait I forgot they used to be under the Islamic yoke![/i]


I point out that those are Bosnian Serbs and that the conflict that were involved in had nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire to which you respond


[i]Eastern Christians have had a long history confronting Islamic aggression. [b]May God bless them as they defend themselves against the infidels.[/b][/i]


You know exactly what you are doing unless you are just astoundingly obstinate and you need to cut it out. I'm good friends with a Croatian girl who is still traumatized from the war provoked by Serbia and a Bosnian Muslim girl who still attends therapy and whose mother still has a chunk of bullet in her neck from Serbian forces who were trying to exterminate the Bosniaks. So I really don't have the patience to suffer your ignorance (that being the kindest adjective I can apply, even if it is inaccurate and far to mild) on this issue. The war in Yugoslavia and the atrocities wrought by the Serbians had nothing to do with either Serbia proper or Bosnian Serbs defending themselves from threats of Dimmitude. Your attempt to somehow furtively tie in or associate those atrocities to Eastern Christian experience with the expansionism of the Ottoman Empire, which ended two centuries prior, is morally repugnant and intellectually vacuous.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Hassan

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='17 November 2009 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1258491876' post='2004369']
What percentage of 1.2 billion in Islam represent those divergent global trends?

[url="http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/05/how-many-islamists"]SOURCE[/url]

[b]Hamas victory:[/b] In Palestinian Authority elections, the Islamist terrorist group Hamas won 44 percent of the popular vote. (January 26, 2006)

[b]Margaret Nydell:[/b] "The militant Muslim groups cannot represent even 1 percent of Muslims in the United States (that would be 50,000) or the world (that would be 15 million). If that were true, we would be overrun with wild-eyed fanatics. Islamists who resort to violence add up to less than one tenth of 1 percent." (Understanding Arabs: A Guide for Modern Times, 4th ed., International Press, 2005, p. 104) Comment: Nydell makes the inexplicable mistake of equating Islamists with terrorists, as though all of the former are the latter. And this from a professor at Georgetown University. Some unsolicited advice for her: stick closer to linguistics, in which you got your degree, and stay clear away from politics.

[b]
Husain Haqqani, author of Pakistan:[/b] Between Mosque and Military (Washington, DC: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 2005) writes on p. 1: "Pakistan's Islamists made their strongest showing in a general election during parliamentary polls held in October 2002, when they secured 11.1 percent of the popular vote."

[b]British polls:[/b] Two just-released opinion surveys of British Muslims suggest a very substantial Islamist percentage. Of the many questions asked, perhaps the most revealing in this regard is the one whether the respondent agrees that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end." An astounding 1/3rd of those asked did agree with this statement. (Anthony King, "One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists," The Daily Telegraph, July 23, 2005)

[b]John O'Sullivan:[/b] "Estimates of the number of (generally young male) Muslims who are actively sympathetic to Islamism are inevitably … speculative. The usual guess is that 15 percent of the Muslim population is sympathetic to Islamism and a much smaller percentage, say 4 percent, actively so." ("The Islamic Republic of Holland," National Review, July 18, 2005)

[b]Hisham Kabbani, head of Islamic Supreme Council of America:[/b] 5 to 10 percent of American Muslims are extremists. (Steven Vincent, "Where Are the Moderate Muslims?" The American Enterprise, April/May 2005, p. 27).

[b]Kamal Nawash, head, Free Muslims Against Terrorism:[/b] "as many as 50 percent of Muslims around the world support the goals of the extremists." ("O'Reilly Factor," Fox News Channel, Aug. 5, 2004)

[b]
Daniel Yankelovich, pollster:[/b] At one extreme of Muslim society "are the hate-America Islamist fundamentalists, who are the most militant and totalitarian. The magnitude and influence of this group varies enormously. For example, in Indonesia this group has doubled, tripled, or quadrupled over the last few years. I would estimate that this group averages about 10% of all Muslims, with enormous variation from one Muslim country to another and particular strength in Arab nations." ("Cutting the Lifeline of Terror: What's Next After Iraq?" July 14, 2004, p. 20) (May 17, 2005)

[b]Jordanian elections:[/b] In the Jordanian parliamentary elections of 1989, the Muslim Brotherhood "attained 30 percent of the seats, in addition to independent Islamists who won 10 seats. This was the highest percentage of seats ever gained by Islamists in Jordan or anywhere else in the region." (Angel M. Rabasa, et al., The Muslim World After 9/11, Santa Monica: RAND, 2004, p. 116)

[b]B Raman, former head of counter-terrorism for Indian intelligence, the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW):[/b] The U.S. government should focus on reforming Islamist madrasas; there are currently up to one million madrasas in Pakistan , a minority of which, perhaps 15 percent, indoctrinate their pupils with Islamist vitriol and militancy. ("Expert tells US to focus on Pak madrasas," Times of India, October 31, 2003)

[b]Israeli elections:[/b] "The northern faction of the fundamentalist Islamic Movement retained its firm control on [the Israeli Arab town of] Umm el-Fahm … in local elections that were otherwise marked by fragmentation in the Arab sector. The movement's candidate in Umm el-Fahm, Sheikh Hashem Abdel Rahman, won 75 percent of the votes compared to around 23% for Said Agbariya, who headed a coalition of predominantly secular political groups." (David Rudge, "Strong Islamic sentiment drives Arab elections," The Jerusalem Post, October 30, 2003)

[b]
Indonesian data:[/b] "Survey and election results show that the number of Islamists, Muslims who want an Islamic state, is no more than 15 percent of the total Indonesian Muslim population of 200 million. The remaining 85 percent are moderately or strongly opposed to an Islamic state. Most important and least recognized in the current climate of fear in the non-Muslim world, Islamism as a political ideology appears to be losing ground in Indonesia, not gaining it." (R. William Liddle and Saiful Mujani, "The Real Face of Indonesian Islam," The New York Times, October 11, 2003)
[/quote]


Most of those are unique and divergent trends.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='17 November 2009 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1258496173' post='2004424']
I post a picture of individuals who I identify as paramilitary Bosnian Serbs. To which you reply

[i]Yeah, the Serbians do not need a military . . . I mean it is not like they were Dhimmis at one time. Oh wait I forgot they used to be under the Islamic yoke![/i]

I point out that those are Bosnian Serbs and that the conflict that were involved in had nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire to which you respond.
[/quote]
I support the right of the Serbs to defend themselves against Islamic aggression, which they have had to do throughout their history. I find your position offensive, because you make excuses for hundreds of years of history, and even in the case of events that are happening at the present time, in order to insist that Islam is a peaceful religion. Your posts, constantly in defense of Islam, either are made out of ignorance, which is what I tend to think is the case with you, or you are intentionally willing to lie in defense of the murderous ideology of a religion that is devoid of truth.

I stand by what I have said in all my posts, including this one, which you did not choose to quote:

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='17 November 2009 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1258484060' post='2004303']
I do not see anything in my comment that indicates that I have endorsed anything and everything that has ever been done by the Serbian nation or by individual Serbs, but I stand by my comments, for I pray that Serbia remain strong, so that the Serbian people never again fall into Dhimmitude to an Islamic power.
[/quote]

Edited November 17, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='17 November 2009 - 02:22 PM' timestamp='1258485738' post='2004312']
You cannot talk bad about Islam in front of Hassan, even if what you say is the truth. Islam is the religion of peace! Get with it.er.
[/quote]


I'm happy to talk bad about Islam. I have done so in front of you. You throw the same charge out again and again no matter how many times I refute it.

I'll help you get the point one last time.

Which problems with Islam you you like to talk about first? The patriarchal structure or the intellectual inertia that tends to develop in the traditional Islamic sciences? How about the Drakonian system of punishments found in traditional Islamic legal codes?

Take your pick HCF. I'm sure this will be a fascinating discussion.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Hassan

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='17 November 2009 - 03:23 PM' timestamp='1258496593' post='2004432']
I'm happy to talk bad about Islam. I have done so in front of you. You throw the same charge out again and again no matter how many times I refute it.

I'll help you get the point one last time.

Which problems with Islam you you like to talk about first? The patriarchal structure or the intellectual inertia that tends to develop in the traditional Islamic sciences?
[/quote]
It is nice, even if it is rare, to hear you criticize Islam; rather than your normal stance of making excuses for that inhuman religious ideology.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' date='17 November 2009 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1258496281' post='2004426']
Most of those are unique and divergent trends.
[/quote]

Representing a rather profound and large amount of Islamic extremists, in many parts of Islamic society.