Should Obama Bow To The Emperor Of Japan?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='princessgianna' date='22 November 2009 - 08:53 PM' timestamp='1258944818' post='2007679']
It means that both people are bowing.

You have to realize that a bow between a Japanese and a Japanese as opposed to a Japanese to a non Japanese is handled different. And a bow between Emperor and the American President should be slight because they both are leaders. If anything the Emperor would do a deeper bow- because the Japanese are very humble people. And most likely the Emperor did not return the bow because they were in a middle of a handshake. And it would not be proper to bow in the middle of that.


All eye contact is actaully bad. It makes the Japanese nervous. We make eye contact to show the talker we are listening. They normally don't. Instead they "grunt" . Though they understand we are Americans are used to that so they deal with it.
[/quote]
Hm...... interesting. Now what if you're not bowing to one person in particular, but rather to a group of people? Same general rules as if it was a single person?

[Saint Therese]

I think he should have done the hokey pokey.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='22 November 2009 - 09:20 PM' timestamp='1258942855' post='2007642']
It is a sign of servitude.
[/quote]

For a start I'm pretty sure in most Asian cultures it's a sign of respect, not servitude. Even if it were what does it matter? I'm sure that wasn't Obama's intention. It's just a bow, if that's the worst foreign policy screw up Obama makes then he's doing legions better than Bush and most other politicians.

Edited November 23, 2009 by OraProMe

[CatherineM]

It's not about feeling superior, it is about not being subservient.

When Katherine Hepburn was doing a play in England, the Queen's assistant came and asked if the Queen could visit her in her dressing room. She said to tell Mrs. Mountbatten that she would be very pleased to have her come to call. The assistant was completely freaked out and said that the Queen is never referred to in that way. Ms. Hepburn then said that we had fought a war about titles and such. She was an old New England Yankee, and wasn't going to budge an inch. I understand they had a nice chat though. I wish I could have been in the room at the time.

By the way, I have no issue with royalty. I will be pledging allegiance to HRH in about a year when I take Canadian Citizenship. The issue isn't about individuals, it is about symbols as old as the US. People fought and died for the right to no longer bend their knees to any monarch. Surely other countries have symbolic things just as important to them, that would seem quite strange or even insulting to Americans. When one takes on the title of President of the United States, he/she takes on the responsibilities and protocols of the rank. He disrespects everyone who has held that position every time he breaks long held accepted protocols.

[dominicansoul]

i think he bowed because someone obviously instructed him to bow...you know, protocol...but he probably didn't do it right...you know, he's really not omniscient as the media would like you to believe...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='22 November 2009 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1258948990' post='2007734']
i think he bowed because someone obviously instructed him to bow...you know, protocol...but he probably didn't do it right...you know, he's really not omniscient as the media would like you to believe...
[/quote]
Clearly, who ever gave him instructions to bow did not understand American presidential protocol.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='22 November 2009 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1258948886' post='2007732']
. . . When one takes on the title of President of the United States, he/she takes on the responsibilities and protocols of the rank. He disrespects everyone who has held that position every time he breaks long held accepted protocols.
[/quote]
Well said.

[Chestertonian]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='22 November 2009 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1258948886' post='2007732']
It's not about feeling superior, it is about not being subservient.

When Katherine Hepburn was doing a play in England, the Queen's assistant came and asked if the Queen could visit her in her dressing room. She said to tell Mrs. Mountbatten that she would be very pleased to have her come to call. The assistant was completely freaked out and said that the Queen is never referred to in that way. Ms. Hepburn then said that we had fought a war about titles and such. She was an old New England Yankee, and wasn't going to budge an inch. I understand they had a nice chat though. I wish I could have been in the room at the time.

By the way, I have no issue with royalty. I will be pledging allegiance to HRH in about a year when I take Canadian Citizenship. The issue isn't about individuals, it is about symbols as old as the US. People fought and died for the right to no longer bend their knees to any monarch. Surely other countries have symbolic things just as important to them, that would seem quite strange or even insulting to Americans. When one takes on the title of President of the United States, he/she takes on the responsibilities and protocols of the rank. He disrespects everyone who has held that position every time he breaks long held accepted protocols.
[/quote]


Very well put.

[KnightofChrist]

Interesting enough, if memory serves, in the ancient dynasties the Emperor of Japan claimed to be a god. So there were very detailed bowing rituals, when approaching the Emperor. Such detail rituals with one error the servant could lose his life.

[Nihil Obstat]

I believe one of the stipulations of the Japanese surrender after WWII was that the emperor cease claiming divinity, so this is a very recent development.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 November 2009 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1258949082' post='2007735']
Clearly, who ever gave him instructions to bow did not understand American presidential protocol.
[/quote]
Can I see this so called "protocol?" You mention it so many times, it must be written somewhere.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='22 November 2009 - 11:01 PM' timestamp='1258948886' post='2007732']
It's not about feeling superior, it is about not being subservient.

When Katherine Hepburn was doing a play in England, the Queen's assistant came and asked if the Queen could visit her in her dressing room. She said to tell Mrs. Mountbatten that she would be very pleased to have her come to call. The assistant was completely freaked out and said that the Queen is never referred to in that way. Ms. Hepburn then said that we had fought a war about titles and such. She was an old New England Yankee, and wasn't going to budge an inch. I understand they had a nice chat though. I wish I could have been in the room at the time.


[/quote]

Well that's completely stupid. How would you feel if some one addressed Pope Benedict as "Mr. Ratzinger" because they don't believe in sacramental ordination?

[quote]
The issue isn't about individuals, it is about symbols as old as the US. People fought and died for the right to no longer bend their knees to any monarch. Surely other countries have symbolic things just as important to them, that would seem quite strange or even insulting to Americans. When one takes on the title of President of the United States, he/she takes on the responsibilities and protocols of the rank. He disrespects everyone who has held that position every time he breaks long held accepted protocols.
[/quote]

So Barrack is being criticized because he ignored an archaic protocol dating back to revolutionary days that has little (if any) relevance to contemporary politics. Right. It's symbolic and I'm sure he was just trying to be polite and impress the Japanese. It wont result in your country adopting a monarchy and being placed under "servitude" so I'm sure the extreme patriots will get over it.

Edited November 23, 2009 by OraProMe

[CatherineM]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='22 November 2009 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1258954077' post='2007803']
Well that's completely stupid. How would you feel if some one addressed Pope Benedict as "Mr. Ratzinger" because they don't believe in sacramental ordination?

[/quote]
One of my priests told a story about going to an ecumenical prayer breakfast, and the man seated next to him kept calling him Brother. He finally asked him why, and was promptly told that the bible says to call no man Father. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pope wasn't called that, maybe not in person, but perhaps in correspondence. I wonder what his driver's license says?

[Hassan]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='22 November 2009 - 11:01 PM' timestamp='1258948886' post='2007732']
It's not about feeling superior, it is about not being subservient.

When Katherine Hepburn was doing a play in England, the Queen's assistant came and asked if the Queen could visit her in her dressing room. She said to tell Mrs. Mountbatten that she would be very pleased to have her come to call. The assistant was completely freaked out and said that the Queen is never referred to in that way. Ms. Hepburn then said that we had fought a war about titles and such. She was an old New England Yankee, and wasn't going to budge an inch. I understand they had a nice chat though. I wish I could have been in the room at the time.

By the way, I have no issue with royalty. I will be pledging allegiance to HRH in about a year when I take Canadian Citizenship. The issue isn't about individuals, it is about symbols as old as the US. People fought and died for the right to no longer bend their knees to any monarch. Surely other countries have symbolic things just as important to them, that would seem quite strange or even insulting to Americans. When one takes on the title of President of the United States, he/she takes on the responsibilities and protocols of the rank. He disrespects everyone who has held that position every time he breaks long held accepted protocols.
[/quote]



uh-huh.



He bowed as a token instance of politeness. That emperor is in place because we needed to make a stable Japan essentially a military colony to check communist expansion in China and south-east Asia. Who cares. If anyone is so ignorant and blinded to the reality of the international scene that they somehow take this as us being subservient to Japan then their opinion probably isn't very important.

It's getting concerned because the Manchu adopted traditional Chinese dress. The symbolism didn't make the Han any less dominated, it just made their domination more bearable for them. Anyone who felt that the Manchu mad themselves subservient to the Han was just deluded.

[Winchester]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='22 November 2009 - 08:21 PM' timestamp='1258939297' post='2007615']
America takes patriotism to a whole new level that others in many countries couldn't even imagine. It's really quite disturbing actually.

"as long as he is President of the US, he should not be bowing, just as we never dip our flag at the Olympics."

Why?
[/quote]
Yes, as if a country formed a group to preserve its language. Weird.

Jingoism exists in other nations. It is chiefly manifest in rhetoric against America. Of all the powers in history capable of wide influence through military and political means, The US has been one of the least offensive. Those nations, like France, who despise the US are simply upset that their empire building failed.