The Liturgy Of The Hours Is Missing Verses!

[JimR-OCDS]

Well lets take a look at one of the missing Psalms, Psalm 58.

Bold text is mine emphasis

[quote]
1 [sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm58.htm#foot1"]1[/url][/sup] [sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm58.htm#foot2"]2[/url][/sup] For the leader. Do not destroy. A miktam of David. 2 [sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm58.htm#foot3"]3[/url][/sup] Do you indeed pronounce justice, O gods; do you judge mortals fairly? 3 No, you freely engage in crime; your hands dispense violence to the earth. 4 The wicked have been corrupt since birth; liars from the womb, they have gone astray. 5 [sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm58.htm#foot4"]4[/url][/sup] Their poison is like the poison of a snake, like that of a serpent stopping its ears, 6 So as not to hear the voice of the charmer who casts such cunning spells. 7 O God, smash the teeth in their mouths; break the jaw-teeth of these lions, LORD! 8 Make them vanish like water flowing away; trodden down, let them wither like grass. 9 [sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm58.htm#foot5"]5[/url][/sup] Let them dissolve like a snail that oozes away, like an untimely birth that never sees the sun. 10 Suddenly, like brambles or thistles, have the whirlwind snatch them away. [b]11 [/b] [b]Then the just shall rejoice to see the vengeance and bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked. [/b]12 Then it will be said: "Truly there is a reward for the just; there is a God who is judge on earth!"
[/quote]

I can see how some would love verse 11, but I think the editors of the LOTH, saw a problem with
it used in prayer.

Anyway, I don't really have a problem with it.

Jim

[Resurrexi]

This is one of the many reasons why I use the EF office.

[mortify]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='28 November 2009 - 10:21 AM' timestamp='1259421683' post='2010662']
Because as the instruction says in effect, the psychological effect of these words in a time of prayer, are not conducive to prayer, but
can be disturbing, thereby distracting from prayer, which the LOH is.
[/quote]

Jim, the hard part to understand is that God has inspired the Psalms and they are intended for prayer. I think the psychological card has been used to make vast alterations to the Church's way of worship and this includes the liturgy as well. Anyway, despite living in a strange period of Church history the Pope has been making moves to return and continue in tradition.

Pax Christi on this first Sunday of Advent,
Mort

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='mortify' date='29 November 2009 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1259513594' post='2011070']
Jim, the hard part to understand is that God has inspired the Psalms and they are intended for prayer. I think the psychological card has been used to make vast alterations to the Church's way of worship and this includes the liturgy as well. Anyway, despite living in a strange period of Church history the Pope has been making moves to return and continue in tradition.

Pax Christi on this first Sunday of Advent,
Mort
[/quote]


But the context of the Psalms is that of Israel, who saw themselves as the righteous, and hence, Psalm 58 calls on God to destroy
the sinners, "the others."

In contrast to Jesus message, who calls us to spread the good news to all people.

I believe the editors of the Catholic Publishing Company, are using the Psalms within a Christian context, not the Tribal Jewish context,
from which they originated.

Their version of the LOTH is an approved version and most accepted version in the English speaking Latin Rite.

Jim

[Veridicus]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='29 November 2009 - 01:53 PM' timestamp='1259520823' post='2011114']
...is an approved version and most accepted version in the English speaking Latin Rite.
[/quote]

Phrases like this have been rapidly losing their value to me as I learn more and more about my Faith.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='29 November 2009 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1259524111' post='2011169']
Phrases like this have been rapidly losing their value to me as I learn more and more about my Faith.
[/quote]
I agree.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='29 November 2009 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1259520823' post='2011114']
I believe the editors of the Catholic Publishing Company, are using the Psalms within a Christian context, not the Tribal Jewish context, from which they originated.[/quote]
Catholic Book Publishing Company is not at fault for removing inspired texts from the Liturgy of the Hours, so they should not get the blame.



As far as the removal of psalms and portions of psalms is concerned, it would be better to explain the texts during the homelitic reflections that can form a part of the Liturgy of the Hours rather than suppress inspired scripture, which has been prayed by the whole Church for 2,000 years.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Nihil Obstat]

I think this again goes back to "don't dumb down the faith!"

[mortify]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='29 November 2009 - 01:53 PM' timestamp='1259520823' post='2011114']
But the context of the Psalms is that of Israel, who saw themselves as the righteous, and hence, Psalm 58 calls on God to destroy
the sinners, "the others."

In contrast to Jesus message, who calls us to spread the good news to all people.[/quote]

Keep in mind Scripture dose not oppose itself, if there are *apparent* contradictions they are a product of man's mind, and not a problem in Scripture itself.

[quote]I believe the editors of the Catholic Publishing Company, are using the Psalms within a Christian context, not the Tribal Jewish context,
from which they originated.[/quote]

Again, keep in mind God is the primary originator of the Psalms and all parts of Scripture. Psalm 58 itself is referring to detractors and hypocrites.

[url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id782.html"]Psalm 58[/url]

[quote]Their version of the LOTH is an approved version and most accepted version in the English speaking Latin Rite.
[/quote]

This doesn't mean it doesn't possess legitimate flaws.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='29 November 2009 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1259525115' post='2011184']
I think this again goes back to "don't dumb down the faith!"
[/quote]
Actually, it goes back to the Consilium, which revised the Roman Church's liturgy according to the notion that the liturgy needed to be updated in order to make sense to "modern man."

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 November 2009 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1259525287' post='2011190']
Actually, it goes back to the Consilium, which revised the Roman Church's liturgy according to the notion that the liturgy needed to be updated in order to make sense to "modern man."
[/quote]
When you say modern man, am I supposed to read that as "stupid people"?

[Apotheoun]

Imagine what the Consilium would have done had it been in charge of "reforming" the Byzantine liturgy. I am sure that they would have been shocked by some of the prayers chanted on the Sunday of the Fathers . . . for example this text:

[size="3"]Without mother, before the morning star, * Thou wast born from the bosom of the Father before all ages, * yet we behold Arius glorifying Thee as a creature and not as God, * audaciously commingling Thee, the Creator, with His creation * and thus brashly heaping upon himself the punishment of eternal Fire, * but the council that was held in Nicea, * proclaimed Thee, O Lord, to be the Son of God, * enthroned together with the Father and the Spirit.[/size]

Or this one, which is a personal favorite of mine:

[size="3"]Despising the comprehension of the true light, * Arius was recompensed with a most extreme consequence for his sin, * for his bowels were rent asunder as if by a divine cleaver, * after which, like unto Judas, he gave up his body and soul * in a manner similar to Judas; * nevertheless the council that was held in Nicea, * proclaimed Thee, O Lord, to be the Son of God, * enthroned together with the Father and the Spirit.[/size]

Yes, the authors of the Byzantine liturgy love to call down anathemas upon the arch-heretics of Christian history.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='29 November 2009 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1259525365' post='2011191']
When you say modern man, am I supposed to read that as "stupid people"?
[/quote]


Well the whole concept of "modern man" is rather foolish, which is why it should not act as some kind of ruling paradigm in establishing the prayers of the Church.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 November 2009 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1259525984' post='2011206']
Imagine what the Consilium would have done had it been in charge of "reforming" the Byzantine liturgy. I am sure that they would have been shocked by some of the prayers chanted on the Sunday of the Fathers . . . for example this text:

[size="3"]Without mother, before the morning star, * Thou wast born from the bosom of the Father before all ages, * yet we behold Arius glorifying Thee as a creature and not as God, * audaciously commingling Thee, the Creator, with His creation * and thus brashly heaping upon himself the punishment of eternal Fire, * but the council that was held in Nicea, * proclaimed Thee, O Lord, to be the Son of God, * enthroned together with the Father and the Spirit.[/size]

Or this one, which is a personal favorite of mine:

[size="3"]Despising the comprehension of the true light, * Arius was recompensed with a most extreme consequence for his sin, * for his bowels were rent asunder as if by a divine cleaver, * after which, like unto Judas, he gave up his body and soul * in a manner similar to Judas; * nevertheless the council that was held in Nicea, * proclaimed Thee, O Lord, to be the Son of God, * enthroned together with the Father and the Spirit.[/size]

Yes, the authors of the Byzantine liturgy love to call down anathemas upon the arch-heretics of Christian history.
[/quote]

I wish I could live long enough to hear the chants of the future Church reflecting back upon the works and effects of people like Bugnini...

Edited November 29, 2009 by Veridicus

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='29 November 2009 - 09:41 AM' timestamp='1259509262' post='2011063']
This is one of the many reasons why I use the EF office.
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
statements like these only divide. statements like these really tick me off. don't belittle those of us who legitimately use the English LOTH and have no desire to pray the office in Latin.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='mortify' date='29 November 2009 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1259525208' post='2011188']
Keep in mind Scripture dose not oppose itself, if there are *apparent* contradictions they are a product of man's mind, and not a problem in Scripture itself.



Again, keep in mind God is the primary originator of the Psalms and all parts of Scripture. Psalm 58 itself is referring to detractors and hypocrites.

[url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id782.html"]Psalm 58[/url]



This doesn't mean it doesn't possess legitimate flaws.
[/quote]

God didn't write Scripture, he inspired man to write it, and it needs to be read in the context from which man
wrote.

The Psalms are the songs of King David and speak of the relationship of the Israelites with God, and the Israelites
love of God.

However, in that time, there was also the inordinate disdain for the sinner and those not of the tribe of Israel. These are the
parts that the LOTH leaves out, because Jesus Christ showed us, that stoning the adulterer, and having hatred toward others is
not of God's will, but the evil acts of men. Psalm 58 expresses this mindset, and so, is not in accord with the gospel message of Jesus Christ, and is why its not a problem for me, that the Church left it out.


Jim

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='29 November 2009 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1259543903' post='2011555']
+J.M.J.+
statements like these only divide. statements like these really tick me off. don't belittle those of us who legitimately use the English LOTH and have no desire to pray the office in Latin.
[/quote]

Those statements may just reveal some divides that are extant rather than themselves dividing anything.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='29 November 2009 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1259544186' post='2011557']
God didn't write Scripture, he inspired man to write it, and it needs to be read in the context from which man
wrote.

The Psalms are the songs of King David and speak of the relationship of the Israelites with God, and the Israelites
love of God.

However, in that time, there was also the inordinate disdain for the sinner and those not of the tribe of Israel. These are the
parts that the LOTH leaves out, because Jesus Christ showed us, that stoning the adulterer, and having hatred toward others is
not of God's will, but the evil acts of men. Psalm 58 expresses this mindset, and so, is not in accord with the gospel message of Jesus Christ, and is why its not a problem for me, that the Church left it out.


Jim
[/quote]

No part of the psalms contradict Jesus and His message. Jesus Himself may have even prayed all the Pslams.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='29 November 2009 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1259545975' post='2011575']
No part of the psalms contradict Jesus and His message. Jesus Himself may have even prayed all the Pslams.
[/quote]

Yeah I doubt if while reading the psalms in synagogue Jesus simply left out the ones that didn't fit into the new social program He was pushing.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 November 2009 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1259213532' post='2009600']
But what about in the "ordinary form" of the Roman Rite, which is used by the vast majority of Roman Catholics? I think that that is the form of the liturgy that the original poster was referring to.
[/quote]

It is in the four volume version.