One "big Mac" And Damnation Follows?

[Bruce S]

This friday, is a day when eating meat is a mortal sin for Catholics.

[quote]Church Teaching
As the centuries passed, the original requirement to fast twice a week was reduced. But, during the Church's entire history, until 1966, all Fridays have been obligatory days of abstinence from meat on pain of mortal sin.

[b]Since 1966, All Fridays during Lent remain obligatory days of abstinence from meat on pain of mortal sin.[/b] All other Fridays remain days of penance. The ordinary penance is absention from meat. However, on non-Lenten Fridays, the faithful may substitute another penance. The substituted penance should involve a level of sacrifice comparable to abstention from meat.

When Friday coincides with a solemnity we are dispensed from penance, in order that we might concentrate more fully on the occasion for the solemnity. All Holy Days of Obligation are solemnities

Authority
Pope Paul VI published Paenitemini, the Apostolic Constitution on Penance, February 17, 1966. It provided for abstinence from meat for all the faithful over 14 years of age. Paenitemini, Chapter III, section C, Norm II, states: "1. The time of Lent preserves its penitential character. The days of penitence to be observed under obligation through-out the Church are all Fridays and Ash Wednesday, that is to say the first days of "Grande Quaresima" (Great Lent), according to the diversity of the rite. Their substantial observance binds gravely. 2. Apart from the faculties referred to in VI and VIII regarding the manner of fulfilling the precept of penitence on such days, abstinence is to be observed on every Friday which does not fall on a day of obligation, while abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday or, according to local practice, on the first day of 'Great Lent' and on Good
[/quote]

More:

[quote]Most Catholics think that Vatican II did away with the requirement of not eating meat on any Friday of the year. Most think it is now just Ash Wednesday and the Fridays of Lent that we cannot eat meat.

This is what the new Code of Canon Law brought out in 1983 says about the matter:

Canon 1251
Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the  Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.[/quote]

Now, some will tell us that this isn't so, but HONESTLY, how can a good Christian LOSE his eternal salvation, be condemned to Hell if he dies after eating deliberately a mere Big Mac this upcoming Friday?

[quote]Mark 7:18-23 NASB) And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also?[b] Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him; {19} because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" [/b](Thus He declared all foods clean.) {20} And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. {21} "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, {22} deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. {23} "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

[b]Hid death on the cross broke the power of the accusations against us and "disarmed" the "rulers and authorities" taking away their ability to enforce their taboos.[/b] Taboos that the ancient world was in dread of. Because of what Jesus did on the cross they no longer have the weaponry with which to punish the Christian who breaks their food regulations. They are toothless tigers Therefore no-one can act as our judge compelling us to observe regulations regarding food and drink and new moons and Sabbaths.

[/quote]

Essentially, Jesus is telling us, and Peters "Kosher Dream" REMOVES the dietary restrictions that defiled one, food is food, eat what you want, when you like.

Your salvation is NOT contingent upone dietary restrictions, and for a denomination to try to reimpose dietary conditions as a condition for union with God in the afterlife, is nothing more than what the early Christians broke free of.

Anyone want to try to justify the "Big Mac To Hell" reasoning?

Edited April 7, 2004 by Bruce S

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:05 PM'] Essentially, Jesus is telling us, and Peters "Kosher Dream" REMOVES the dietary restrictions that defiled one, food is food, eat what you want, when you like. [/quote]
There is nothing sinful about eating meat per se. The sin is disobeying the Church, which Church has the power of binding and loosing.

[Dave]

To add to what Hananiah said, one of the Ten Commandments is to honor our father and mother. That doesn't just mean our parents but ALL legitimate authority. How much more legit can you get than the authority of the Church Jesus established?

[DojoGrant]

The Church has not required the penance of abstainance of meat because meat is viewed as unclean, foul, or in general unworthy of consumption. It is not a "sin to eat meat." Rather, it is a sin to not perform penance on Fridays. During Lent, the time of preparation for Christ's death and resurrection, we "deny the flesh," the sinful nature which pulls us down, in a symbolic way of Christ's own humility in taking on flesh and the sin of the world and taking it away.

The meat is symbolic of flesh. Furthermore, most people eat meat, so giving up something that is a normal part of everyone's day is a substantial penance, a self sacrifice, that we can offer to the Lord in honor of His Good Friday passion.

It is the lack of sacrificial penance, not the eating of meat, that is sinful for the Catholic. The abstainance of meat is merely the proferred means of penance established by the Magesterium.

[Bruce S]

[quote]There is nothing sinful about eating meat per se. The sin is disobeying the Church, which Church has the power of binding and loosing.[/quote]

You sidestepped the WHY this could beaver dam you. Using YOUR logic, or lack thereof, ignoring ANY teaching of the Church is a Mortal Sin, and it isn't. For example, birth control is almost UNIVERSALLY used by most USA Catholics. Everyone knows that. So, using your logic, does a woman commit a MORTAL sin every morning when popping in the birth control sin?

I've never seen that one defined as a mortal sin, and you are DEFINATELY going against strict instructions.

So, again, WHY meat, and why on THIS DAY can one be condemned to eternal damnation?

[DojoGrant]

Bruce, he didn't sidestep anything. Your new question was not in your original post; not even implied. You can't expect us to anticipate every turn you will take before you take it.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:20 PM'] During Lent, the time of preparation for Christ's death and resurrection, we "deny the flesh," the sinful nature which pulls us down, in a symbolic way of Christ's own humility in taking on flesh and the sin of the world and taking it away.
[/quote]
how do you prepare for something that's already happened?

is that like, "I'm gonna get enough sleep so I'll do good on my finals last week?"

[XIX]

Ive never heard of it being a grave matter (please, don't say "mortal" when you mean "grave") I'd say it's because you are not accepting or acknowledging your own penance, and thus rejecting your own forgiveness. No, its not a preparation (that's what Ash Wednesday fast is for)

Edit: I'm not saying that it isn't a grave matter, just I've never heard it put that way.

As for your question of why having a Big Mac is so grave...well, it's really not. It's the lack of pennance that goes with it.

Edited April 7, 2004 by XIX

[Livin_the_MASS]

Learn from a [url="http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/friends_of_god/point/136"]SAINT!!![/url]

[PedroX]

[quote]So, using your logic, does a woman commit a MORTAL sin every morning when popping in the birth control sin?[/quote]

yes


peace...

[DojoGrant]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:24 PM'] how do you prepare for something that's already happened?

is that like, "I'm gonna get enough sleep so I'll do good on my finals last week?" [/quote]
I agree that what I said was poorly worded, but I'm sure you also knew exactly what I am speaking about. I am speaking of the preparation for the celebration of Easter, the commemoration of the events.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:20 PM'] You sidestepped the WHY this could beaver dam you. Using YOUR logic, or lack thereof, ignoring ANY teaching of the Church is a Mortal Sin, and it isn't. For example, birth control is almost UNIVERSALLY used by most USA Catholics. Everyone knows that. So, using your logic, does a woman commit a MORTAL sin every morning when popping in the birth control sin? [/quote]
So what you're implying is, that it's [b]"ok"[/b] to have pre-martial sex since most people are doing it these days?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:20 PM'] You sidestepped the WHY this could beaver dam you. Using YOUR logic, or lack thereof, ignoring ANY teaching of the Church is a Mortal Sin, and it isn't.[/quote]
Yes, it is.

[quote]For example, birth control is almost UNIVERSALLY used by most USA Catholics. Everyone knows that. So, using your logic, does a woman commit a MORTAL sin every morning when popping in the birth control sin?[/quote]
Yes, she does.

[quote]So, again, WHY meat, and why on THIS DAY can one be condemned to eternal damnation?[/quote]
Again, it is not the meat that puts you in a state of mortal sin--it's one's deliberate act of not being obedient to Christ's Church.

Your statement of "A Big Mac Sends You to Hell" is totally missing the theology behind WHY we fast.

God bless.

[dUSt]

Look. The Catholic Church requires obedience. We have rules. We have guidelines. Everybody knows that. It's hard to be a good Catholic--to live up to the Church's expectations--that's exactly what draws me to it.

You, apparently, have a belief system based on personal happiness. I for one don't feel that that type of belief system would bring me closer to Christ--as I truly feel closest to Christ when I'm sacrificing my desires for [b]His[/b] will.

God bless.

[Bruce S]

[quote]Your statement of "A Big Mac Sends You to Hell" is totally missing the theology behind WHY we fast.
[/quote]

The requirement for fasting is NOT optional, it is commanded by Jesus, in the "WHEN you fast.." clause. I agree that one is to fast.

Now the church telling you on THIS day you are to, and ONLY THIS item will constitute a failure to do so, and MEAT is the only requirement...

See where this is exactly like the mandated Kosher requirements of the Jews, the ones Peter and Paul said were no longer operative?

It is really NOT a voluntary fast, for one can GORGE on everything else, it is a SELECTIVE FOOD PROHIBITON... repeat, NOT a fast.

[Bruce S]

[quote]You, apparently, have a belief system based on personal happiness. I personally don't feel that that type of belief system would bring me closer to Christ--as I feel closest to God when I'm sacrificing my ways for His will.
[/quote]

Personal happiness? Gimmie a break here, being a good Pentecostal fundamentalist is HARDER than being a catholic. You guys get to go to a dance or have a bottle of wine without worry, we are expected to be saints, trust me, being a Catholic is easier in many respects than a fundie.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:42 PM'] It is really NOT a voluntary fast, for one can GORGE on everything else, it is a SELECTIVE FOOD PROHIBITON... repeat, NOT a fast. [/quote]
Arguing whether or not that giving up meat on Fridays is considered "fasting" or "food prohibition" is irrelevant and pointless. I'm not going to be bated into a dialogue over a definition that teh Church has clearly defined--it's like arguing over the definition of an apple.

And if one gorges on everything else, they defeat the purpose anyway. I figured you'd know this since you use to be Catholic.

[DojoGrant]

One is voluntarily in communion with Christ's Church, so one is also voluntarily performing the penance of abstainance. Heck, one voluntarily believes in God for His salvation.

And no, I continue to not see how it is like the Jewish prohibition of certain foods for the same reasons that I have already laid forth. To be analogous, the Church would be declaring meat a sinful or unclean thing not intended for us to eat. Rather, it is a wonderful thing given for our physical edifcation, which is exactly why we DO give it up, because it is a true spiritual sacrifice.

That should cover both your allegation of volunteering and Judaism.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:35 PM'] Again, it is not the meat that puts you in a state of mortal sin--it's one's deliberate act of not being obedient to Christ's Church. [/quote]
and even Peter said, "I am no respecter of persons" so if when you say Christ's church, you mean the governmental system put in place to let everyone know what their place is, and what they should believe...then no. I'm not obedient to that.

I do follow the counsel of those Christians who have shown themselves to be solid Christ-like models.

like Cornelius...from Act 10, you know, when Peter had the dream of MEAT.

[quote]9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.[/quote]

and whats this? Simon, which is surnamed Peter...the rock...DOUBTED...even though he was SHOWN not once, not twice, but 3 times.

and what about this?


1Corinthians 10:25-31 (NASB) [quote]{25} Eat anything that is sold in the meat market, without asking questions for conscience' sake; {26} FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS. {27} If one of the unbelievers invites you, and you wish to go, eat anything that is set before you, without asking questions for conscience' sake. {28} But if anyone should say to you, "This is meat sacrificed to idols," do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience' sake; {29} I mean not your own conscience, but the other man's; for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience? {30} If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks? {31} Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.[/quote]

[the lumberjack]

and here's some more from the Bible.

(Romans 14:13-23 NASB) Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this-- not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. {14} I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. {15} For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.



{16} Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; {17} for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. {18} For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. {19} So then let us pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. {20} Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food.