One "big Mac" And Damnation Follows?

[Bruce S]

dUSt, empty your PM box, I need to private you with a message, and your box is full.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]Now the church telling you on THIS day you are to, and ONLY THIS item will constitute a failure to do so, and MEAT is the only requirement...[/quote]

It still has to do with obedience. We obey the Church.


[quote]It is really NOT a voluntary fast, for one can GORGE on everything else, it is a SELECTIVE FOOD PROHIBITON... repeat, NOT a fast.[/quote]

Acutally during the season of Lent one can fast from more than just meat. It's about obedience and sacrifice to prepare our minds.


LJ, When the aposteles were picking grain and the phariesses complained about it, Jesus told them while the Bridegroom was with them they did not have to fast, but one day they would have to.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Jason' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:54 PM'] LJ, When the aposteles were picking grain and the phariesses complained about it, Jesus told them while the Bridegroom was with them they did not have to fast, but one day they would have to. [/quote]
what does that have to do with this UNvoluntary fast that you are TOLD to go thru. Yes, Christ said WHEN we fast...and not IF we fast...

but CHRIST never said, when you fast on this Friday, on the first leap year of the New Millenium...

and the Quotes from Scripture pretty much lay it out for you.

and if you say that the Church has a different interpretation of what The Bible says, alls I can say is...whoa.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:58 PM'] what does that have to do with this UNvoluntary fast that you are TOLD to go thru. Yes, Christ said WHEN we fast...and not IF we fast...

but CHRIST never said, when you fast on this Friday, on the first leap year of the New Millenium...

and the Quotes from Scripture pretty much lay it out for you.

and if you say that the Church has a different interpretation of what The Bible says, alls I can say is...whoa. [/quote]
If I understand your post right. Show me in the Bible where it says Bible Alone?

[dUSt]

[quote]and even Peter said, "I am no respecter of persons"  so if when you say Christ's church, you mean the governmental system put in place to let everyone know what their place is, and what they should believe...then no.  I'm not obedient to that.[/quote]
The Church is the Body of Christ--but you knew that from reading teh Bible, right? Are you not obedient to the body of Christ?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:45 PM']
Personal happiness? Gimmie a break here, being a good Pentecostal fundamentalist is HARDER than being a catholic. You guys get to go to a dance or have a bottle of wine without worry, we are expected to be saints, trust me, being a Catholic is easier in many respects than a fundie. [/quote]
Cool.

But still--it doesn't really matter if you're a good fundie or bad fundie because the moment you were saved absolved you from all future sins, right?

[the lumberjack]

you show me in your catholic collection of coordinated collaborations where it says its okay to go AGAINST the Bible...and in doing so, against God.

[Bruce S]

[quote]Church bans Fenway franks: No meat for faithful at Good Friday opener
By Eric Convey
Thursday, March 11, 2004

Catholic members of Red Sox Nation might be eating tofu at Fenway Park on Opening Day with the Archdiocese of Boston insisting that even baseball is no excuse to eat meat on Good Friday.

    ``The passion for the Red Sox seems to be overriding the Passion of Christ,'' said a dismayed suburban priest who spoke on condition of anonymity.

    Good Friday - the holiest day in the Christian calendar - falls on April 9, the home opener for the Sox, a ritual that usually includes a frank or two, or pizza with pepperoni, or a greasy sausage.

    Faithful Catholics, fearing the wurst, have asked the archdiocese for a waiver from the no-meat rule for the day.

[b][color=red]    In 1995 and 2000, Bernard Cardinal Law allowed local Catholics to eat meat when St. Patrick's Day fell on a Friday during Lent. [/color][/b]

    ``We're already getting all kinds of requests for dispensation to eat meat,'' said the Rev. Christopher J. Coyne, a spokesman for the archdiocese, said yesterday.

    It wasn't even a close call.

    After meeting to discuss the requests, Boston church leaders decided baseball fever was too weak an excuse to duck the no-meat rule, Coyne said.

    Coyne also complained that the game is being held on the day Christians believe Jesus died on the cross.

    ``I would hope it was just an oversight when they were doing the schedule,'' he said. ``I think it's very insensitive to the huge number of people who are Christians and fans.

    ``I for one won't watch the game,'' he added.

    Red Sox officials did not return calls yesterday seeking comment.

      Season-ticket holder and practicing Catholic Anne Sodini said she had not heard any complaints from friends that the game was being held on Good Friday.

    But she said she appreciated that the game against the Toronto Blue Jays was scheduled for 3:05 p.m. instead of the usual daylight start time of 1 p.m.

    ``I like the fact that the game time doesn't fall during the holiest part of Good Friday,'' she said.

    According to Christian tradition, Jesus hung on the cross from noon until 3 p.m.

    Sodini, of Belmont, said she knows many Catholics who abide by the church's prohibition against eating meat on Good Friday during Lent - the 40-day period leading up to Easter.

    If the Good Friday timing is unfortunate for the Red Sox, at least the calendar was not as cruel as in 1998. That year, Good Friday, Passover and Opening Day fell on the same day.

    The Fenway faithful were treated to a Mo Vaughn game-winning grand slam that day but were denied beer at the ballpark.

    Every team in Major League Baseball played on Good Friday that year - drawing the ire of the late New York Archbishop John Cardinal O'Connor. He wrote about his disappointment in his archdiocesan newspaper and boycotted the Yankees and Mets - in part for playing between noon and 3 p.m.

   
[/quote]

Did you catch the WAIVER, for St. Patricks Day of the meat prohibition?

Now again, tell me that this is of God, and not of men?

A Bishop dispensing of the tradition, removing the curse because it was inconvenient for the Irish congregants?

Gimmie a break here guys, sheesh, DOUBLE SHEESH.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:11 PM'] The Church is the Body of Christ--but you knew that from reading teh Bible, right? Are you not obedient to the body of Christ? [/quote]
c'mon dust...you know what the rest of my post says!

don't just cut and paste the junk that makes me look like a loner cult jerk.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 7 2004, 12:42 PM']


[/quote]
[quote]The requirement for fasting is NOT optional, it is commanded by Jesus, in the "WHEN you fast.." clause. I agree that one is to fast.

Now the church telling you on THIS day you are to, and ONLY THIS item will constitute a failure to do so, and MEAT is the only requirement...[/quote]


Actually, everyone has missed this point, unless I've missed someones rebuke. The Church requires us to FAST and ABSTAIN, on Good Friday. Abstain from meat, AND FAST. So, Bruce, we aren't required to "FAST" from meat. We are required to ABSTAIN from meat.

The word abstain implies that it normally isn't a sin. Like one who abstains from sex. Sex isn't necessarily a sin. It is a good thing! But to abstain from it at the appropriate times (like before marriage) is required.

We are also required to FAST, this means one NORMAL size meal that day.


[quote]It is really NOT a voluntary fast, for one can GORGE on everything else, it is a SELECTIVE FOOD PROHIBITON... repeat, NOT a fast.[/quote]


Again, when we are required to abstain, indeed it is okay to "gorge" (unless of course this becomes gluttony). The point of abstinance is to strenthen the will against the temptation to eat meat (something we normally would eat). Abstinance is a different beast from Fasting. It serves the same purpose, but from another angle. The point isn't to "not eat". It is to abstain from a certain "thing" (which was chosen to be meat). The purpose of abstinance is to call our attention to our actions. If we can willfully abstain from meat, then later we can willfully abstain from gossip, or lust, or whatever.

Fasting on the other hand focuses on the same thing, namely stengthening the will, but it fights it a different way. The point of fasting is to "not eat". Again, it calls our attention to our actions. If we can willfully fight the hunger, the temptation of the flesh, then later we can willfully fight agains the temptation of lust, anger, pride, etc.


On the Fridays we are to abstain, it isn't a sin to have full serving of food and get "full". The point is to be aware of not eating meat. We can have fun at a football game, for instance, without lusting after the cheerleaders.

On Good Friday and Ash Wednesday we are asked to abstain and fast (BOTH). So, we can have on normal meal that doesn't include meat. This day, yes, the point is to feel hungry. It's a double blast on the will of the flesh.

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:58 PM'] what does that have to do with this UNvoluntary fast that you are TOLD to go thru. Yes, Christ said WHEN we fast...and not IF we fast...

but CHRIST never said, when you fast on this Friday, on the first leap year of the New Millenium...

and the Quotes from Scripture pretty much lay it out for you.

and if you say that the Church has a different interpretation of what The Bible says, alls I can say is...whoa. [/quote]
You first seem to argue against the whole notion of fasting, then you seem to argue that fasting is required, but according to when we want to do it--and not teh Church.

Again, this falls into personal interpretation of the Bible--personal interpretation of Christ's rules--which totally baffles me. Personally, I could never give myself that much credit.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:58 PM']what does that have to do with this UNvoluntary fast that you are TOLD to go thru.  Yes, Christ said WHEN we fast...and not IF we fast...

but CHRIST never said, when you fast on this Friday, on the first leap year of the New Millenium...

and the Quotes from Scripture pretty much lay it out for you.

and if you say that the Church has a different interpretation of what The Bible says, alls I can say is...whoa.[/quote]
[quote]Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, "Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route."

So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,

and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.

The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot."

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"

He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

This was the scripture passage he was reading: "Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth.

In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth."

Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, "I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?"

Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.

As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?"

Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.[/quote]

Acts 8:26-38

This passage of Scripture proves that it is up to the judgment of the Church which divinely conferred communion and ministry of watching over and interptreting the word of God.

[Livin_the_MASS]

No reply LJ?

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:13 PM'] you show me in your catholic collection of coordinated collaborations where it says its okay to go AGAINST the Bible...and in doing so, against God. [/quote]
What?

But you hit a good point. You said to go against the Bible is to go against God. This is true. The problem is in translating and interpreting the Bible--that's where we need the Church's guidance. So therefore--to go against the Church is to go against God, because the Church is the only earthly authority that can give us the correct interpretation.

It all falls back on individuals assuming that they have the correct interpretation. As a Catholic, we don't rely on individuals--we rely on the collective body of Christ, as a whole--unified under on Church.

God bless.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:15 PM'] You first seem to argue against the whole notion of fasting, then you seem to argue that fasting is required, but according to when we want to do it--and not teh Church.

Again, this falls into personal interpretation of the Bible--personal interpretation of Christ's rules--which totally baffles me. Personally, I could never give myself that much credit. [/quote]
CHRIST said, "WHEN you fast..."

NOT

When you ARE TOLD TO fast...

its not personal interpretation, its what the Bible says.

Red, Black, and White.

[Bruce S]

[quote]Remembrance of the Passion


In November 1966, the U.S. bishops did just that. The bishops' conference's "Complementary Norms on Penance and Abstinence" [b]released American Catholics from a strict obligation under pain of sin to abstain from meat on Fridays outside of Lent. [/b]

But the same document insisted that Friday was to remain a special day of penance throughout the year: "Friday should be in each week something of what Lent is in the entire year. For this reason we urge all to prepare for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday by freely making of every Friday a day of self-denial and mortification in prayerful remembrance of the passion of Jesus Christ."


The bishops went on to say that, among these now freely chosen penitential practices, [b]"we give first place to abstinence from flesh meat. We do so in the hope that the Catholic community will ordinarily continue to abstain from meat by free choice as formerly we did in obedience to Church law. " [/b]

This change came in the wake of Vatican II, a time when adjustments in liturgical and disciplinary law, not to mention theological dissent and some unapproved innovations, were causing a stir among the faithful and in the media.


It seems that the Friday-abstinence story was cast by reporters primarily in terms of "no more going to hell for eating a hamburger on Friday" rather than a call to continue the tradition of Friday penance, embraced out of love, and with leeway for more variety.


[color=red][u][b]Perhaps the nuances and distinctions were preached in pulpits at the time,[/b][/u][/color] but many Catholics did not follow through. Time went on, two new generations have matured and the notion of Friday abstinence or penance has largely disappeared from many Catholics' conscience.

[url="http://catholiccitizens.org/platform/platformview.asp?c=10976"]http://catholiccitizens.org/platform/platf...iew.asp?c=10976[/url]

[/quote]

Softpedling what we WERE TAUGHT WAS GOD's "Law" now? I was definately, unabigously, clearly, specifically taught that to eat meat on Friday, was sin so grevious that if unconfessed, damnation followed.

No way was that a mere suggestion in the 1960s and before.

It was black and white.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:14 PM']
Did you catch the WAIVER, for St. Patricks Day of the meat prohibition?

Now again, tell me that this is of God, and not of men?

A Bishop dispensing of the tradition, removing the curse because it was inconvenient for the Irish congregants?

Gimmie a break here guys, sheesh, DOUBLE SHEESH. [/quote]
Bruce. You still don't seem to get it man. The Church is granted apostolic authority. It makes the rules, it can bend them--all with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

[Jake Huether]

Read my post at the end of page 2, if you haven't already. Thanks.

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:14 PM'] c'mon dust...you know what the rest of my post says!

don't just cut and paste the junk that makes me look like a loner cult jerk. [/quote]
I was debunking your implication that the Church was simply a group of men making up their own rules. If you look at the Church as Catholics do, as the Body of Christ, you wouldn't be so opposed to being obedient to Her.

[Livin_the_MASS]

What we would call DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE!