Cloistered Nuns

[Margaret Mary]

I was wondering if anyone has ever discerned with a cloistered order that does not have a live-in? How does this work? Not including writting letters, are you ever able to meet the community and talk with them before entering?

Thanks!

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Margaret Mary' date='01 December 2009 - 10:30 AM' timestamp='1259677814' post='2012471']
I was wondering if anyone has ever discerned with a cloistered order that does not have a live-in? How does this work? Not including writting letters, are you ever able to meet the community and talk with them before entering?

Thanks!
[/quote]

You write letters, speak over the phone perhaps, and then when you do visit you should always get to meet the Mother Prioress and possibly other sisters in the parlor/meeting room with the grill.

[img]http://www.dioceseofknoxville.org/userfiles/image/march22.2009/bishopwithCarmelites.gif[/img]

[Macies]

As far as I know, most communities other than Poor Clares and some really strict Carmels, allow live-ins IF you are in the serious stages of discernment, have your paperwork in and it appears as if you are going to enter.

After having lived in community (active) and currently in the process of transferring into a cloistered order, I would not advise joining a community that does not allow a live-in.

I understand that is what being a postulant is for, but I think sometimes the community (especially those in leadership) don't fully appreciate what it takes to actually move (to the convent/monastery), let alone what it takes to return if things don't work out. At one time, I was the Vocation Director for my own community and even under the best of circumstances (women with a good support system, family, etc.) "discovering" the life isn't for you is a really painful and difficult process.

I know a lot of communities take a hard line on this but there is plenty of good, solid, orthodox theological as well as Canon Law support to prove otherwise.

Hope this helps.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Macies

[Thomist-in-Training]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' date='01 December 2009 - 10:03 AM' timestamp='1259679820' post='2012482']
You write letters, speak over the phone perhaps, and then when you do visit you should always get to meet the Mother Prioress and possibly other sisters in the parlor/meeting room with the grill.

[img]http://www.dioceseofknoxville.org/userfiles/image/march22.2009/bishopwithCarmelites.gif[/img]
[/quote]

To add to this more specifically, here is an example of how it might work: Say you live far away. You write, maybe have some phone calls, read up on the order. After a while, you ask to visit and they suggest an available time--usually at least a week if you live far away and are serious about the order. For that time, you stay in a guest area, either attached to the building but outside the enclosure, or a separate house on the property. You probably attend most of the hours of the Divine Office, Holy Mass, etc, in the extern chapel; they lend you a breviary. You might have one or two conferences (half an hour to a few hours) each day in the parlor with the superior or one of the sisters charged with formation. Sometimes you might meet all the sisters at the grille? I don't know if that's usual.

Macies certainly has more experience than me. I have only hearsay to offer, but women have and still do join and are happy without having a visit inside. Mother Mary Francis joined the Poor Clares in Chicago sight unseen! She hadn't even visited externally! Of course things were different in the 50s when she joined...
A Poor Clare novice I met last year told me she came for her visit and spoke for half an hour at the grille with the sister who's basically the sub-prioress, and after that, she knew she wanted to enter! I mean, there are a lot of things about religion that--I was going to say seem crazy--ARE crazy by worldly standards. So in some cases this may be just another one of them... but Macies is probably right that it helps to have a visit inside.

<long personal rant>
I have a funny situation actually I was discerning with one cloistered order. Then, my idea was "it's almost like cheating to visit inside first... less romantic." But the Novice Mistress offered me two weeks inside in the summer and I was thrilled to accept. Then, they changed novice mistresses. The new one--whom I knew only by letter--seemed colder, and said "I think it's better if you just have a shorter visit outside." As it happened due to circumstances beyond our control it wasn't the thing, so I didn't end up having much of a visit there at all.

After that I was discerning with Poor Clares, who as a rule--after all they have a [i]vow[/i] of enclosure--don't have live-ins. But at the time we agreed I would visit, they had just moved from one monastery to another, and so were not canonically enclosed at that point in time. That meant that I was able to have a live-in with them. Now, they are (or I am) foreign, so it was more different than if it were just an enclosed order. Anyways it was a good thing for me, and in a way I got my wish through a loophole... at least that's how it seems to me, I don't know if it makes sense.
</rant>

[TradMom]

+Praised Be Jesus Christ!

Some of you know that my blood Sister (+RIP) entered religious life [i]later[/i] in life as a Carmelite. Then, God graced our family with TWO vocations to religious life (two daughters, different communities, both contemplative).

I spent a lot of time looking with them (AND my dear Sister!). My husband and I had one hard, fast and firm rule for our daughters - obviously the girls could do ANYTHING they wanted in terms of life and vocation - but IF they wanted our total and complete support and help - we asked for one thing only...that they enter a community that would allow for a live-in experience. Like others have said here and on other threads, most appropriately a live in occurs when a person is very certain this path is for them. (Otherwise...for the peace of the life - who wants to live in a zoo with all kinds of people parading in and out?! Too much and very disruptive - unless, of course, part of the Life includes retreats and hospitality!)Many Carmels that "we" visited allow their applicants to visit, interview, etc., and after the mountains of paperwork, voting and doctors' visits...the applicant then comes to experience the life to return home and ponder the experience and make preparations.

I feel very strongly about this, and encourage all those considering religious life in a cloistered/contemplative/monastic setting to think about the practical aspects of entering a community that you have only met through the grille very seriously.

One of the monasteries we have supported (not Carmelite) recently had a change in leadership. At that time, the community (not sure who made the decision - the Mother Prioress, Vocation Mistress or Council) that live-in's would no longer be possible. This news greatly saddened me, for I believe much good comes from having an opportunity to live and breathe the life, step away ... only to return freely. (Also good for the communities --- I like to think of that old saying about not knowing someone until you have traveled with them! So true!)

Enough of me!

Pax,

TradMom

[Margaret Mary]

Thanks everyone! TradMom, what communities are you daughters with?

[Antigonos]

On another thread, IIRC, someone mentioned that there are two kinds of enclosure -- Papal and Constitutional. Is there any real difference in the way the cloistered life is lived between the two types? I had always thought that "cloistered" meant "cloistered" [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif[/img]

[Gemma]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='12 December 2009 - 02:56 AM' timestamp='1260600975' post='2018941']
On another thread, IIRC, someone mentioned that there are two kinds of enclosure -- Papal and Constitutional. Is there any real difference in the way the cloistered life is lived between the two types? I had always thought that "cloistered" meant "cloistered" [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Papal enclosure is the strictest, and usually what is thought of when one hears of cloistered nuns. The vows are "solemn" and the most binding. If a nun leaves her vows by papal dispensation, then returns, she is given the black veil of the professed. A letter one cloistered nun saw in regards to dispensation read, "As far as I am able. . ." regarding releasing another nun from her solemn vows.

Women who make solemn vows are properly called "nuns."

Anyone entering the enclosure has to be cleared by the bishop.

Constitutional enclosure is the amount of enclosure set by the constitutions--the document that rules the life lived in the monastery. It can be lived like papal enclosure, though, if that is what is specified. The religious are not called nuns, they are called "sisters."

There's a lot more to it, but that's the basic gist of the differences. I'm sure those who have been either in the cloister or who have worked as externs can explain further.

Blessings,
Gemma

[kavalamyself]

I'm not sure that part about those living in constitutional enclosure not being nuns is right...but I am not sure. I am pretty sure I know some nuns who are under constitutional enclosure.
Osap...are you around?! I know you know this!

[GraceUk]

I spent a few days with some sisters many many years ago. When this kind of visit was first being allowed. One elderly nun told me she didn't agree with this. She was very nice to me and I respected her opinion. It certainly wouldn't have been allowed in her day. And I could see what she meant.

[hoosieranna]

[quote name='Gemma' date='12 December 2009 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1260632501' post='2019079']
Papal enclosure is the strictest, and usually what is thought of when one hears of cloistered nuns. The vows are "solemn" and the most binding. If a nun leaves her vows by papal dispensation, then returns, she is given the black veil of the professed. A letter one cloistered nun saw in regards to dispensation read, "As far as I am able. . ." regarding releasing another nun from her solemn vows.

Women who make solemn vows are properly called "nuns."

Anyone entering the enclosure has to be cleared by the bishop.

Constitutional enclosure is the amount of enclosure set by the constitutions--the document that rules the life lived in the monastery. It can be lived like papal enclosure, though, if that is what is specified. The religious are not called nuns, they are called "sisters."

There's a lot more to it, but that's the basic gist of the differences. I'm sure those who have been either in the cloister or who have worked as externs can explain further.

Blessings,
Gemma
[/quote]

The Abbey of St. Walburga in CO observes constitutional enclosure but takes solemn vows and so are properly called nuns. That's what they say on their site, at least. [url="http://walburga.org/Novitiate.html"]http://walburga.org/Novitiate.html[/url]

[Gemma]

I'm just going off of what I was told when we were working on the cenobitic expression of the Cloisterites. If the sisters didn't take solemn vows, they could not be called nuns.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Digitaldame]

[quote name='Gemma' date='13 December 2009 - 02:32 AM' timestamp='1260667930' post='2019445']
I'm just going off of what I was told when we were working on the cenobitic expression of the Cloisterites. If the sisters didn't take solemn vows, they could not be called nuns.

Blessings,
Gemma
[/quote]

We have solemn vows, are nuns (moniales) and have Monastic Enclosure as defined by our Constitutions. Some communities which had Papal Enclosure in the past now have Monastic Enclosure but the vows remain unaltered. I think Dinklage may be one, but I haven't checked so forgive me if I am misleading anyone. In some ways, Monastic Enclosure can be "stricter" than in some communities which juridically have Papal Enclosure but practically speaking are not able to observe all its requirements. Especially among Benedictines there are differences of interpretation/practice. Some would go so far as to argue that Papal Enclosure is not really Benedictine at all. Where I think we would all agree is that some form of enclosure is absolutely essential for a life of prayer and can't be limited to being understood in purely physical or geographical terms. That said, getting the balance right between withdrawal for the sake of living a closer union with God and being open to the many needs of people who seek our help is difficult, but Benedictines have a special obligation to hospitality so I suppose we should expect that. I have noticed that in the UK for some perverse reason nuns are often called sisters and sisters often called nuns. We don't mind too much, except when people ask us to do things we can't (e.g. take Holy Communion to sick members of the parish).

[osapientia]

[quote name='kavalamyself' date='12 December 2009 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1260649390' post='2019256']
I'm not sure that part about those living in constitutional enclosure not being nuns is right...but I am not sure. I am pretty sure I know some nuns who are under constitutional enclosure.
Osap...are you around?! I know you know this!
[/quote]
Well thanks for the vote of confidence, kavalamyself. Two others have already weighed in with the proper information, but I'll go ahead and add my own .02. Yes indeed a community can be constitutionally enclosed and have solemn vows. There are lots of them around - especially among Benedictines (as DigitalDame has explained). Anyone with solemn vows is a Moniale (nun). I don't know about every community but I can tell you that one constitutionally enclosed community of solemnly professed nuns with which I am very familiar, needs the permission of the Bishop for anyone to enter the enclosure.

One easy way to explain the difference (explained to me succinctly by a Poor Clare) is that with Papal Enclosure the nuns are required to have a physical separation between herself and "the world"....for instance the grille (the most common form of this separation) but it can be something else...for instance in Langhorn, PA the Poor Clare's parlors have a "desk like" structure between them and their guests......the nuns and guests enter the parlor through different doors (on different sides of the enclosure). The REQUIREMENT for a physical separation of this kind does not exist when requesting approval of constitutional enclosure (though I suppose a community could write it into their constitutions - <smile>). Hence, for example, you will see constitutionally enclosed nuns (like those in Colorado) visiting "face to face" with their guests.

Gemma, I see from many of your posts that you are careful to seek guidance and information on your journey....but on this point, someone gave you incorrect info.

Pax,
Osap

[kavalamyself]

I forgot to say: don't go to a Monastery unless you can have a live in. Take it from me.

[zunshynn]

I was cleaning out my old computer, and I came across a response I had started to this thread sometime before Christmas, when it was still active... I had gotten busy with schoolwork and planned on coming back to it.

I was just going to drop it since I don't like constantly bumping old threads, but I did spend a fair amount of time on my response, so I'm going to anyway. Sorry it's so long!



Personally, I entered a monastery that did have a "live in" experience more or less, at the time. I was allowed to go into the enclosure and visit inside the monastery and "live the life" during the day, although I didn't sleep in the enclosure but a guest house. The constitutions of the PCPA allows for aspirants to live in the monastery for up to three months, although I don't know if any of the monasteries actually did that, at least for that long. Even if I had not gone into the enclosure before hand and only spoke to some of the sisters at the grille, I think that I would have still entered because the call that I had at the time would not have been changed by that. I didn't enter OLAM because my "live-in" experience gave me this sure sense that I "fit in" with the sisters, or that I knew what the day-to-day life would really be like, but because I felt called to their apostolate of perpetual adoration and to their charism as Franciscans dedicated to offering thanksgiving to God.

Personally, I don't think that a week or two or even a month "living" religious life as an aspirant really gives any substantial impression of what the life is like, or of what the community is like. I honestly think that one of the biggest differences is the grace of actually "belonging" to this community... That grace is what allows you to KNOW you're in the right place... it isn't in "testing it out" and seeing if it fits, because really, you aren't "living it." You could go through all of the exercises of religious life but you really aren't living religious life until you actually are a religious. I honestly believe that the grace that comes with actually "belonging" to the order. You can't really know what it's like until you actually have the grace.

And there is most definitely a grace that comes with entrance that you did not have before that allows you to live the life. There is absolutely a grace that is given when one receives the habit. It is the grace that allows a person to live a life that naturally speaking, they may never have been able to live. So a live-in experience before that, before one is given the grace to live it that they are given at entrance, really may not give one a clearer idea of God's will. I'm not saying that God doesn't bestow graces of discernment upon people during live-in experiences, but I don't think that God can only work in that way, and I think it's wrong to place that stipulation upon Him.

That is not to say that there are not practical aspects that come into play in religious life, and practical aspects certainly should be considered. I mean, it would be kind of crazy for someone who has never had an interest in nursing, for example, to join an order dedicated to nursing just because it "feels good" but after careful discernment someone might really come to the conclusion that even though a community is not what they thought would be a fit, that is actually where God is calling them. In the same way, I think it is quite possible for someone to know, after careful reflection and prayer, that a community is where God is calling them without actually going into the enclosure before their entrance.

It is also important to bear in mind that postulancy really is a genuine live in experience. Postulancy does consist of seriously discerning if it is your vocation and where God wants you, aided by the grace that comes with that particular time in formation. That's why you don't profess final vows the day you enter, no matter how sure you are that you're going to stay there! You only get the grace you need for the day... you won't get tomorrow's grace before you need it!

I know a number of people who had live-ins with different communities that were EXACTLY what they thought they wanted, and yet, they weren't at peace because God did not want them there, and as such, did not give them the grace for that. In fact, they often ended up entering in other places where their first live-in experience had them convinced it was not a fit, or entering a place that did not have a live-in experience, and they are extraordinarily happy. Answering the call to religious life is not always "logical". Sometimes it doesn't make sense, but because it's grace that allows for a person to live.

While some communities have decided that it is fitting to allow serious aspirants to have "live-in" experiences and I think that's great and certainly has its own value, I think that there is definitely also a value in a community choosing to remain with the time-honored tradition of not doing so. Traditions like that are beautiful, and I think should not be set aside too rashly. I also think that it's very easy for someone looking on the outside to say that certain traditions of religious life are unreasonable and impractical. That mentality is SO prevalent in our culture... that we have to try everything out before we think it's reasonable to commit to it. I mean, just look at all the people who think it absurd to marry someone without living with them first. But we know the effects of that. The fact is, the sacrament of matrimony gives two people the grace to live married life, a grace that is given to them without their "trying it out" first. It's the grace of matrimony that actually makes it so they are living married life. Two people could live together and externally do everything that married life would entail, but without that grace they are not really living married life.

The point I'm trying to make is, is that God can, and does call people to monasteries that do not have live-in experiences, and if one refuses to consider a community you may very well be refusing to accept God's will. If you have peace with the thought of entering somewhere without a live-in, and believe that God is calling you there, then don't refuse Him! If you are very serious about a community and they do have a live-in experience, that's awesome, do it! But I would not hinge your decision to enter or discern with them on that. Personally, I think it would be really sad for someone's parents to withhold their complete support because of something like that. Who are we to insist that God operate through the ways we think are "reasonable"?

[awyers]

Wow! Thanks for posting that Zunshynn. That was such a well phrased clarification of my own experiences and a huge answer to prayer for me

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Piobaire' date='06 January 2010 - 06:40 AM' timestamp='1262785252' post='2030817']
Wow! Thanks for posting that Zunshynn. That was such a well phrased clarification of my own experiences and a huge answer to prayer for me
[/quote]

oh, sure, I was happy anybody even read it, it was so long! I wish I wasn't so verbose sometimes!

[brightsadness]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='05 January 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1262727938' post='2030375']
I was cleaning out my old computer, and I came across a response I had started to this thread sometime before Christmas, when it was still active... I had gotten busy with schoolwork and planned on coming back to it. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif[/img]

I was just going to drop it since I don't like constantly bumping old threads, but I did spend a fair amount of time on my response, so I'm going to anyway. Sorry it's so long!



Personally, I entered a monastery that did have a "live in" experience more or less, at the time. I was allowed to go into the enclosure and visit inside the monastery and "live the life" during the day, although I didn't sleep in the enclosure but a guest house. The constitutions of the PCPA allows for aspirants to live in the monastery for up to three months, although I don't know if any of the monasteries actually did that, at least for that long. Even if I had not gone into the enclosure before hand and only spoke to some of the sisters at the grille, I think that I would have still entered because the call that I had at the time would not have been changed by that. I didn't enter OLAM because my "live-in" experience gave me this sure sense that I "fit in" with the sisters, or that I knew what the day-to-day life would really be like, but because I felt called to their apostolate of perpetual adoration and to their charism as Franciscans dedicated to offering thanksgiving to God.

Personally, I don't think that a week or two or even a month "living" religious life as an aspirant really gives any substantial impression of what the life is like, or of what the community is like. I honestly think that one of the biggest differences is the grace of actually "belonging" to this community... That grace is what allows you to KNOW you're in the right place... it isn't in "testing it out" and seeing if it fits, because really, you aren't "living it." You could go through all of the exercises of religious life but you really aren't living religious life until you actually are a religious. I honestly believe that the grace that comes with actually "belonging" to the order. You can't really know what it's like until you actually have the grace.

And there is most definitely a grace that comes with entrance that you did not have before that allows you to live the life. There is absolutely a grace that is given when one receives the habit. It is the grace that allows a person to live a life that naturally speaking, they may never have been able to live. So a live-in experience before that, before one is given the grace to live it that they are given at entrance, really may not give one a clearer idea of God's will. I'm not saying that God doesn't bestow graces of discernment upon people during live-in experiences, but I don't think that God can only work in that way, and I think it's wrong to place that stipulation upon Him.

That is not to say that there are not practical aspects that come into play in religious life, and practical aspects certainly should be considered. I mean, it would be kind of crazy for someone who has never had an interest in nursing, for example, to join an order dedicated to nursing just because it "feels good" but after careful discernment someone might really come to the conclusion that even though a community is not what they thought would be a fit, that is actually where God is calling them. In the same way, I think it is quite possible for someone to know, after careful reflection and prayer, that a community is where God is calling them without actually going into the enclosure before their entrance.

It is also important to bear in mind that postulancy really is a genuine live in experience. Postulancy does consist of seriously discerning if it is your vocation and where God wants you, aided by the grace that comes with that particular time in formation. That's why you don't profess final vows the day you enter, no matter how sure you are that you're going to stay there! You only get the grace you need for the day... you won't get tomorrow's grace before you need it!

I know a number of people who had live-ins with different communities that were EXACTLY what they thought they wanted, and yet, they weren't at peace because God did not want them there, and as such, did not give them the grace for that. In fact, they often ended up entering in other places where their first live-in experience had them convinced it was not a fit, or entering a place that did not have a live-in experience, and they are extraordinarily happy. Answering the call to religious life is not always "logical". Sometimes it doesn't make sense, but because it's grace that allows for a person to live.

While some communities have decided that it is fitting to allow serious aspirants to have "live-in" experiences and I think that's great and certainly has its own value, I think that there is definitely also a value in a community choosing to remain with the time-honored tradition of not doing so. Traditions like that are beautiful, and I think should not be set aside too rashly. I also think that it's very easy for someone looking on the outside to say that certain traditions of religious life are unreasonable and impractical. That mentality is SO prevalent in our culture... that we have to try everything out before we think it's reasonable to commit to it. I mean, just look at all the people who think it absurd to marry someone without living with them first. But we know the effects of that. The fact is, the sacrament of matrimony gives two people the grace to live married life, a grace that is given to them without their "trying it out" first. It's the grace of matrimony that actually makes it so they are living married life. Two people could live together and externally do everything that married life would entail, but without that grace they are not really living married life.

The point I'm trying to make is, is that God can, and does call people to monasteries that do not have live-in experiences, and if one refuses to consider a community you may very well be refusing to accept God's will. If you have peace with the thought of entering somewhere without a live-in, and believe that God is calling you there, then don't refuse Him! If you are very serious about a community and they do have a live-in experience, that's awesome, do it! But I would not hinge your decision to enter or discern with them on that. Personally, I think it would be really sad for someone's parents to withhold their complete support because of something like that. Who are we to insist that God operate through the ways we think are "reasonable"?
[/quote]


So helpful. Thank you. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/twothumbsup.gif[/img]

[vee]

I read it too Zunshynn and while this may be an old thread and your post a bit longer than usual it was good that you posted it. For one there are probably people who read it but never reply even though it helped them. I always try to remember this when I post something online and that is it can stay online for years Of course if its something helpful and worthwhile then thats a good thing.