todd_vetter33 Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 (edited) [size="3"]What Follows is the perception of a Second to Third Century Bishop regarding the Anointing in Bethany Event and the agreement between Judas and the Pharisees as he perceived it from the book of Matthew as it presented a different perception of time for this event in His time period. This paragraph from Christian history and the testimony that follows is going to reveal that God's word is a light to the world only if God's word is defined as the Spirit of Prophecy and Scripture that can never be broken. Prophecy (God breathed words of truth) has to be a truth so solid that it cannot be shaken; otherwise there is no such thing as a solid truth or God.[/size] [size="3"]Link reference for a 2[sup]nd[/sup] to 3[sup]rd[/sup] Century Bishop's understanding regarding the anointing in Bethany.[/size] [url="http://www.bombaxo.com/didascalia.html"][size="3"][color="#0000ff"]http://www.bombaxo.com/didascalia.html[/color][/size][/url] [size="3"][b]"[u][color="#0000ff"]on the tenth of the moon[/color][/u][/b], [color="#ff0000"]on the second day of the week[/color], (p. 92) the priests and elders of the people assembled and came to the court of Caiaphas the high priest; and they took counsel to apprehend Jesus and put him to death: but they feared, saying: Not in the festival, lest the people make a tumult [Mt 26.3-5]; for all men were hanging upon Him [Lk 19.48], and they held him for a prophet [Mt 21.46] on account of His miracles of healing which He did among them. [b][u][color="#800080"]But Jesus was that day in the house of Simon the leper[/color][/u][/b][/size][size="3"][color="#800080"] [/color][Mt 26.6], and we together with Him, and He related to us that which was about to happen to Him. But Judas went out privily from us, thinking that he would evade our Lord, and went to the house of Caiaphas where the chief priests and elders were assembled, and said to them: What will ye give me, and I will betray Him to you when I have found an occasion? But they appointed [[188]] and gave him thirty pieces of silver [Mt 26.15]. And he said to them: 'Make ready young men armed, because of His disciples, that if He go forth by night to a desert place I may come and lead you.' And they made ready the young men and prepared to seize Him. And Judas was watching, when he might find him an occasion to betray him.[b]"[/b] If Christ died on a Friday in the Year of His Crucifixion, The testimony as illustrated above regarding the anointing in Bethany would have taken place on the second day of the week for the tenth of the moon or Ten Nissan. See page 9 of the time line that is link referenced at the end of this examination for example. What is clear by this testimony is that it is placing the anointing in Bethany on the Evening of the tenth day of the first month since it's in reference to the upcoming Passover/crucifixion. For the possibility of a Friday crucifixion this would have been a Sunday Night (Gregorian time). This in turn according to the book of John would have placed the triumphal entry on a Monday if it happened the day after the anointing in Bethany. This illustrates that the Palm Sunday tradition had not yet been established by the 3[sup]rd[/sup] century councils that defined the tenet view. The Third century Christians had a great deal of confusion based on the written testimonies that existed in their time. [/size] [size="3"]All through the Didascalia Apostolorum the Bishop appears to be quoting from Matt, Mark, Luke and John as they appeared in His time period, yet he had this perception of understanding which is very different and not consistent with the traditional perceptions shared by our current bible gospels and much of Christianity today who build their understanding on what should be the same gospels this bishop had, if they never changed by the hand of scribes during the first three centuries where no solid accountability can be given or verified. This Bishop also believed that Christ had his last supper on Tuesday (3[sup]rd[/sup] Day of the week), was captured that night (4[sup]th[/sup] day of the week per Jewish time), went before Caiaphas on the 4[sup]th[/sup] day of the week, Then goes on to drag out the time line of events regarding Pilate and Harod, to portray Christ dying on a Friday. See page 26 of the link referenced time line that follows this examination. If Christ died on a Wednesday in 30 AD, (see page 12 of time line link referenced at the end of this examination), what we have is a piece of historical testimonial evidence corroborating with the Gospel of the twelve, that the anointing in Bethany occurred on the evening of the tenth day of the first month, (Ten Nissan). If Christ was crucified in 30 AD, the anointing in Bethany would have been the Evening of the Sabbath (Ten Nissan) just as the Gospel of the twelve presents, which gives credibility that the Gospel of the twelve predates the Didascalia Apostolorum which is said to have been written in the second to Third century prior to the 3[sup]rd[/sup] and 4[sup]th[/sup] century councils. The four day prophecy of Exodus 12 is able to then illustrate that this Bishop who wrote Didascalia Apostolorum was not baring solid true witness regarding the illustrated events when he claimed [color="#ff0000"]it was the Second day of the week[/color][/size][size="3"]. Exodus 12 prophecy and the historical evidence of its fulfillment also highlights that the Gospel of John is not baring true witness by claiming the anointing in Bethany occurred 6 days before the Passover. It exposes that Matthew and Mark are also not baring true witness by illustrating that the anointing in Bethany occurred two days before the Passover. The Gospel of the twelve, though placing the anointing in Bethany with the correct perception of time for when the event actually occurred (Evening of the Sabbath) appears to skip the day time period for the event that would have occurred on the Sabbath day following the anointing in Bethany by stating that the triumphal entry occurred on the First day of the week. Later in the Gospel of twelve's testimony of events that followed up to the Crucifixion, someone from our Christian past added in a day transition in the middle of the Cleansing of the Temple testimony, otherwise the Gospel of Twelve would have portrayed Jesus Crucifixion on a Thursday.[/size] [size="3"]What I find most interesting is that the bishop appears to be using the book of Matthew as it appeared in His day (specifically chapter 26 as it appears in our day) to explain his perception of understanding. The oldest know copies of the canonized gospels can only be allegedly dateable to the 3[sup]rd[/sup] to 4[sup]th[/sup] century. Chapter 26 of Matthew as it appears to us today begins with a time marker by stating it was Two days before the Passover, (12 Nissan) then illustrates the same events that the bishop was trying to portray occurring two days earlier than the gospels of Matt and Mark currently portray. If the Gospel of Matthew and Mark which state a uniform perception of time for these events were never changed or altered by Scribes in the third or fourth century, this Bishop, whose testimony is said to predate the oldest preserved Christian gospel texts would not be presenting this perception of understanding which goes very contrary to the perception of time presented by our bibles gospels today regarding the anointing in Bethany event. This is clear evidence that the bible gospels we have today are not what were available to the Third century Christian prior to the 3[sup]rd[/sup] and 4[sup]th[/sup] century councils.[/size] [size="3"]One thing that is very clear is that this man is a man of intelligence and reason who was familiar with the Jewish concept of time regarding an evening and morning making a day. It's very clear that he inherited written lies which caused him to build an understanding on lies where the end result was a false perception of what he perceived to be the truth for these events. We today are an end result of those who built on lies instead of the Spirit of Truth, which gives us evidence of this below Jeremiah prophecy in fulfillment since many make the bible the Word of God instead of the voice of truth that those of the truth should hear as was spoken by Jesus to Pilate. [/size] [b][size="3"]Jeremiah 16: 19-20 [/size][/b] [size="3"][b]19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress, My refuge in the day of affliction, The [u]Gentiles[/u] shall come to You From the ends of the earth and say, "Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable [i]things.[/i]" 20 Will a man make gods for himself, which [i]are[/i] not gods? [/b][/size] [size="3"]The time line at the below link illustrates very clearly how to use OT Prophecy as a light to the confusion of Christian written recorded history. See pages 9 and 12 in comparison to the Bishops testimony regarding the anointing in Bethany. The mystery of Babylon is soon to be solved when the born again process (the true gospel of the Christ) begins being taken to the world in truth through the Spirit that gives life, not the letter which kills. 2 Corinthians 3:4-6[/size] [url="http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/the%20death%20and%20resurrection.pdf"][size="3"][color="#0000ff"]http://www.thedeatha...esurrection.pdf[/color][/size][/url] [size="3"]It can be seen by the words of a wise man why many Christian denominations exist that do not agree with one another regarding doctrine and bible interpretation.[/size] [b][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+6:19&version=NKJV"][size="3"][color="#0000ff"]Proverbs 6:19[/color][/size][/url][/b] [size="3"]A false witnesses who speaks [b]lies[/b], and one who sows [b]discord[/b] among brethren.[/size] [size="3"][b]dis·cord:[/b] (d s kôrd ) n.[i].[/i] [b]1. a. [/b]Lack of agreement among persons, groups, or things. [b]b. [/b]Tension or strife resulting from a lack of agreement; dissension.[/size] [size="3"][b]For unity in Christ and solid truth, one must speak the truth about God, from God, if they are to bare good fruit and deliver souls.[/b][/size] [b][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+14:25&version=NKJV"][size="3"][color="#0000ff"]Proverbs 14:25[/color][/size][/url][/b] [size="3"]A [b]true[/b] witnesses delivers [b]souls[/b], But a deceitful witness speaks lies.[/size] [size="3"] [size="3"][/size]With history presenting 4 different perceptions of Time for the single event of the anointing in Bethany, Only one gets to be the truth inspired by the Holy Spirit. Why does the bible give two different days for a single event between what is supposed to be three separate witnesses?[/size] [size="3"]-The book of John places anointing in Bethany 6 days before the Passover, (8 Nissan).[/size] [size="3"]-Matthew and Mark place this event 2 Days before the Passover, (12 Nissan).[/size] [size="3"]-2[sup]nd[/sup] to 3[sup]rd[/sup] Century Christian bishop places this Event on the Tenth of the Moon (Ten Nissan).[/size] [size="3"]-Gospel of holy twelve places this event on the Evening of the Sabbath; in 30 AD (Ten Nissan).[/size] [size="3"] In 30 AD with evidence of Prophecy fulfillment, the G-12 text appears to be the truth.[/size] [size="3"]Who is telling the truth inspired by God that will eventually deliver souls? You decide![/size] [size="3"]Lies can keep us and others in our current death of darkness even if we do not perceive them to be lies. There is a sin offering in the Law of Moses for the person who discovers he has sinned in ignorance which tells us sin in ignorance will still result in death. The only way to bare true witness of God is to be led by the spirit of God. These are the Sons and Daughters of God. (Romans 8:14)[/size] [size="3"]________________________________________________________________________________[/size] [size="3"][/size] [size="3"]What Follows from this point is an expanded thought regarding the Didascalia Apostolorum regarding the Passover Chapter (XXI) and the documents Introduction since many claim Oral traditions in the Catholic and Christian world have never changed throughout the ages.[/size] [size="3"]My brother (who is Catholic) claims that the Catholic Oral tradition is solid truth passed down through the ages, and he believes that I did not consider this in my studies. If one takes the time to read the following understanding in full regarding the 2[sup]nd[/sup] to 3[sup]rd[/sup] century Christian Bishops perception for the Passover events as well as his elaboration of doctrine that was Catholic perceptional truth in his day, the speculation that Catholic Oral traditions of men can be used to reveal truth, crumbles and reveals a forgotten past understanding regarding Catholic history. This also reveals that our bible gospels are not what men have claimed them to be.[/size] [size="3"]The time line I have shared will help understand where this Bishop went wrong in his perceptions regarding the week prior to Crucifixion and the crucifixion to resurrection events even though the Bishop is claiming this document was penned in ink by the Apostles themselves.[/size] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]"For [b][u][color="#0000ff"]I Matthew also, who am one of the twelve Apostles who speak to you in this Didascalia[/color][/u][/b], was formerly a publican; but now, because that I believed, I have obtained mercy, and have repented of my former deeds"[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]"When therefore the whole Church was in peril of falling into heresy, all [color="#0000ff"][b][u]we the twelve Apostles came together to Jerusalem[/u][/b] [/color]and took thought what should be done. And [i]it seemed good to us, being all of one accord [/i][Acts 15.25][i], [/i]to write [color="#0000ff"][b][u]this Catholic Didascalia[/u][/b] [/color]for the confirming of you all."[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]Throughout the 26 full length chapters of Didascalia found at the below link, Catholic Church authorship is claimed 17 times.[/size][/font] [size="3"]The introduction illustrates that this is a Catholic Publication from Catholic history. Pay close attention to the paragraphs that have blue highlights. My comments are in Red. [/size] [size="3"]Reference: [/size][url="http://www.bombaxo.com/didascalia.html"][size="3"]http://www.bombaxo.com/didascalia.html[/size][/url] [size="3"][/size] [center][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][color="#0000ff"]THE CATHOLIC DIDASCALIA [/color][/size][/font][/center] [center][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]THAT IS TEACHING [/size][/font][/center] [center][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]OF THE TWELVE HOLY APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES OF OUR SAVIOUR [/size][/font][/center][center][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][/size][/font][/center][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][/size][/font]GOD'S planting and the holy vineyard of [b][u][color="#0000ff"]His Catholic Church[/color][/u][/b], the elect, who rely on the simplicity of the fear of the Lord, who by their faith inherit His everlasting kingdom, who have received the power and fellowship of [color="#0000ff"][b][u]His Holy Spirit[/u][/b] [/color][cf. 2Cor 13.13], and by Him are armed and made firm in the fear of Him, who are become partakers [i]in the sprinkling of the[/i] [1Pt 1.2] pure and precious [i]blood of[/i] the Great God, [i]Jesus Christ[/i] [1Pt 1.17], who have received boldness to call the Almighty God Father, as joint heirs and partakers with His Son and His beloved [cf. Rom 8.17; Eph 3.6] hear the Didascalia of God, you that hope and wait for His promises, which hath been written after the command of our Savior and is in accord with His glorious words. [/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][/size][/font]CHAPTER XXI [/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][i]Concerning the Pascha and the Resurrection of Christ our Saviour. [/i][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][v. 10] Wherefore, a Christian ought to keep himself from vain speech and from words of levity and profanity. For not even on Sundays, in which we rejoice and make good cheer, is it permitted to anyone to speak a word of levity or one alien to religion: as our Lord also teaches us in the Psalm by David, saying thus: [i]And now, ye kings, understand; and be [/i][[179]] [i]instructed, all ye judges of the earth, Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice unto him with trembling. Give ye heed to discipline, lest the Lord be angry, and ye perish from the way of justice: for his wrath will shortly be kindled against you. Blessed are all they that trust on him [/i][Ps 2.10-12][i]. [/i]We must conduct our festivals and our rejoicings, then, with fear and trembling; for a faithful Christian, it saith, must not sing the songs of the heathen, nor have anything to do with the laws and doctrines of strange assemblies; for it may happen that through (their) songs he will make mention also of the name of idols, which God forbid that it should be done by the faithful; [/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][v. 11] for the Lord by Jeremiah upbraids certain folk and speaks thus: [i]They have left me, and have sworn by them that be no gods[/i] [Jer 5.7][i]. [/i]And again He saith: [i]If Israel will return, let him return unto me, saith the Lord;[/i] [i]and if he will put away his abominations out of his mouth, and will fear before my face, and swear, As the Lord liveth[/i] [Jer 4.1-2][i]. [/i]And again He saith: [i]I will take away the name of idols out of your mouth[/i] [cf. Hos 2.17; Zech 13.2][i]. [/i]And by Moses again He saith to them: [i]They have provoked me to jealousy by that which is no god; and with their idols they have angered me[/i] [Dt 32.21][i]. [/i]And in all the Scriptures (p. 87) He speaks of these things.[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][v. 12] And not by idols only is it not lawful for the faithful to swear, but neither by the sun, nor by the moon; for the Lord God speaks by Moses thus: [i]My people, if ye shall see the sun and the moon, ye shall not be led astray by them, and ye shall not serve them: for these have been given you for light upon the earth[/i] [Dt 4.19; Gen 1.15][i]. [/i]And by Jeremiah again He saith: [i]Ye shall not learn according to the ways of the gentiles; and ye shall not fear the signs of heaven[/i] [Jer 10.2][i]. [/i]And by Ezekiel He speaks thus: [i]And he brought me in to the court of the house of the Lord, between the [/i][[180]] [i]porch and the altar. And I saw there men whose backs were toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east[/i]: [i]and they were worshipping the sun. And the Lord said unto me: Son of man, is this a light thing to the house of Judah to do these abominations which they do here, that they have filled the earth with iniquity, and have turned again to provoke me to anger? And they are become as scoffers: but I will deal (with them) in wrath; and mine eye shall not spare, and I will not have mercy. And they shall cry in mine ears with a loud voice, and I will not hear them [/i][Ezk 8.16-18][i]. [/i]You see, our beloved, how sternly and bitterly sentence is passed on those who worship the sun or swear thereby, that the Lord should [i]deal in His wrath [/i][Ezk 8.18][i]. [/i]Therefore it is not lawful for a believer to swear, neither by the sun nor by any other of the signs of heaven or the elements; nor to make mention with his mouth of the name of idols; nor to utter a curse out of his mouth, but rather blessings and psalms and (words from) the dominical and divine Scriptures, which are the firm foundation of our faith: and especially in the days of the Pascha, wherein all the faithful throughout the world fast; as our Lord and Teacher said when they asked Him: [i]Why do John's disciples fast, but thine fast not?[/i] [i]And he answered and said to them: The sons of the bridechamber cannot fast, as long as the bridegroom is with them. But the days will come when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them: and then they shall fast in those days[/i] [Mk 2.18-20 (Mt 9.14-15; Lk 5.33-35)][i]. [/i]But now by His working is He with us, but visibly He is absent, because He has ascended to the heights of heaven and sat at the right hand of His Father.[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][v. 13] Wherefore, when you fast, pray and intercede for [[181]] them that are lost; as we also did when our Saviour suffered. [v. 14] For while He was yet with us before He suffered, as we were eating the Passover with Him, (Last supper, Passover was not until the next day if Christ died on 14 Nissan just before 15 Nissan) He said to us: [i]To-day, in this night, one of you will betray me. [/i](p. 88) [i]And we said unto Him, each one of us: Is it I, Lord? And he answered and said to us: He that putteth forth his hand with me into the dish [/i][Mk 14.30; Mt 26.21-23 (Mk 14.18-20)]. And Judas Iscariot, who was one of us, rose up and went his way to betray Him [cf. Jn 13.30]. Then our Lord said to us: [i]Verily I say unto you, a little while and ye will leave me; for it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the lambs of his flock shall be scattered [/i][Jn 16.32; Mt 26.31; Mk 14.27][i]. [/i]And Judas came with the scribes and with the priests of the people, and betrayed our Lord Jesus.[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]Now this was done on the [b][u][color="#0000ff"]fourth day of the week [/color][/u][/b][color="#ff0000"](Wednesday)[/color]. For when we had eaten the Passover on the [b][u][color="#0000ff"]third day [/color][/u][/b][color="#ff0000"](Tuesday[/color]) of the week at even, we went forth to the Mount of Olives; and in the night they seized our Lord Jesus. And the next day, which was the fourth of the week, He remained in ward in the house of Caiaphas the high priest. And on the same day the chiefs of the people were assembled and took counsel against Him. And on the next day again, which was the fifth of the week, they brought Him to Pilate the governor. And He remained again in ward with Pilate the night after the fifth day of the week. But when it drew on (towards day) on the Friday, [[182]] [i]they accused him much [/i][Mk 15.3] before Pilate; and they could show nothing that was true, but gave false witness against Him. And they asked Him of Pilate to be put to death; and they crucified Him on the same Friday.[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]He suffered, then, at the sixth hour on Friday (Wednesday according to prophetic time line). (hum[color="#0000ff"][b][u]And these hours wherein our Lord was crucified were reckoned a day. And afterwards, again, there was darkness for three hours; and it was reckoned a night. And again, from the ninth hour until evening, three hours, (reckoned) a day. And afterwards again, (there was) the night of the Sabbath of the Passion[/u][/b] [/color][color="#ff0000"](a speculation that differs from Catholic Oral tradition and falls short of the Prophecy spoken by Jesus regarding 3 actual days and 3 nights). [/color]-- But in the Gospel of Matthew it is thus written: [i]At even on the Sabbath, when the first day of the week drew on, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the tomb. And there was a great earthquake: for an angel of the Lord came down and rolled away the stone [/i][Mt 28.1-2][i]. [/i]-- And again (there was) the day of the Sabbath; [color="#0000ff"][b]and then three hours of the night after the Sabbath, wherein our Lord slept[/b]. And that was fulfilled which He said: [b][i][u]The Son of man must pass three days and three nights in the heart of the earth[/u][/i][/b] [/color][Mt 12.40][i], [/i]as it is written in the Gospel. And again it is written in David: [i]Behold, thou hast set my days in measure[/i] [Ps 38.6 LXX][i]. [/i]Now because those days and nights came short, it was so written. [[183]][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][color="#ff0000"]More on the resurrection that is not consistent with current Catholic or traditional Christian Oral tradition which Tim (my Catholic brother) who is in agreement with most traditional Catholics says Oral tradition never changed?[/color][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][color="#0000ff"]In the night, therefore, [i]when the first day of the week drew on[/i][i], [/i][/color]He appeared to [i]Mary Magdalene and [/i]to [i]Mary [/i](p. 89) [i]the daughter of James[/i][i] [/i][Mt 28.1, 9 (cf. Jn 20.1, 14; Mk 16.1)]; and in the morning of the first day of the week He went in to (the house of) Levi [cf. Gosp. of Peter 14]; and then He appeared also to us ourselves. And He said to us, teaching us: Are ye fasting for Me these days? or have I any need that ye should afflict yourselves? But it is for your brethren that ye have done this; and do ye the same in these days when ye fast, and on the fourth of the week and on the Friday always, as it is written in Zechariah: [i]The fourth fast, and the fifth fast[/i] [Zech 8.19][i], [/i]which is the Friday. For it is not lawful to you to fast on the first of the week, because it is My resurrection; wherefore the first of the week is not counted in the number of the days of the Fast of the Passion, but they are counted from the second day of the week, and are †five† days. Wherefore, [i]The fourth fast, and the fifth fast, and the seventh fast, and the tenth fast shall be to the house of Israel[/i] [Zech 8.19][i]. [/i]Fast then from the second day of the week, six days wholly, until the night after the Sabbath; and it shall be reckoned to you as a week. [[184]] But [i]the tenth [/i][Zech 8.19][i], [/i]-- because[i] [/i]the beginning of My name is Yod, -- wherein was made the inception of the fasts. But (fast) not after the custom of the former People, but according to the new testament which I have appointed you: that you may be fasting for them on the fourth day of the week, because on [color="#0000ff"][b][u]the fourth of the week they began to destroy their souls, and apprehended Me[/u][/b].[/color] -- For the night after the third of the week belongs to the fourth of the week, as it is written: [color="#0000ff"][b][i]There was evening and there was morning, one day[/i][/b] [Gen 1.5][i]. [/i][b][u]The evening therefore belongs to the following day: for on the third of the week at even I ate My Pascha [color="#ff0000"](Last supper)[/color] with you, and in the night they apprehended Me[/u][/b][/color]. -- But fast for them also on the Friday, [color="#0000ff"][b]because thereon they crucified Me, in the midst of their festival of unleavened bread (this would be 18 Nissan but you will find later in testimony, The bishop claims the Passover was decreed to begin 3 days early (page 8 of this document))[/b], [/color]as it is said of old in David: [i]In the midst of their festivals they set their signs, and they knew not [/i][Ps 74.4 (73.4 LXX)].[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]And be ye constant in fasting during these days always, and especially you who are of the Gentiles. For because the People was not obedient, I delivered them (the Gentiles) from blindness and from the error of idols and received them: that through your fast and theirs who are of the Gentiles, and your service during those days, when you pray and intercede for the error and destruction of the People, your prayer and intercession may be accepted before My Father who is in heaven, (p. 9°) as though from one mouth of all the faithful on earth; and (that) all things which they did unto Me may be forgiven them. For this cause also I have already said to you in the Gospel: [i]Pray for your enemies[/i] [cf. Mt 5.44; Lk 6.27][i], [/i]and: [i]Blessed are they that mourn[/i] [Mt 5.4][i], [/i]over the destruction of them that believe not.'[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]Know therefore, our brethren, that (as regards) our fast which we fast in the Pascha, it is on account of the disobedience of our brethren that you are to fast. For even though they hate you, [[185]] yet ought we to call them brethren; for we have it written in Isaiah thus: [i]Call them brethren that hate and reject you, that the name of the Lord may be glorified [/i][Isa 66.5][i], [/i]For their sake therefore, and for the judgment and destruction of the (holy) place, we ought to fast and to mourn, that we may be glad and take our pleasure in the world to come; as it is written in Isaiah: [i]Rejoice, all ye that mourn over Zion[/i] [cf. Isa 66.10][i]; [/i]and again He saith: [i]To comfort all them that mourn over Zion: instead of ashes, the oil of gladness; and instead of a spirit afflicted with pain, a vesture of glory [/i][Isa 61.2-3][i]. [/i][v. 15] We ought then to take pity on them, and to have faith and to fast and to pray for them. For when our Lord came to the People, they did not believe Him when He taught them, but put away His teaching from their ears. Therefore, because this People was not obedient, He received you, the brethren who are of the Gentiles, and opened your ears that your heart might hear; as our Lord and Savior Himself said by the prophet Isaiah: [i]I appeared unto them that asked not after me, and I was found of them that sought me not; and I said, Behold, I am here, to a people that called not (upon) my name[/i] [Isa 65.1][i]. [/i]Now of whom did He speak thus? Was it not of the Gentiles, because that they had never known God, and because that they were serving idols? But when our Lord came to the world and taught you, you believed, you who have believed in Him, that God is one [cf. Hermas Mand 1.1]; and they also who are worthy shall believe, until the number is filled up of them that are to be saved [cf. 1Clem 2.4; 59.2], [i]a thousand thousand, and ten thousand times ten thousand[/i] [cf. Ps 68.17 (67.18 LXX); Dan 7.10][i], [/i]as it is written in David.[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]But concerning the People, who believed not in Him, He said thus: [i]I spread forth my hands all the day long to a people that obey not and resist, and walk in a way that is not good, and go after their sins: a people that is provoking before me[/i] [Isa 65.2-3][i]. [/i][v[i]. [/i]16] [[186]] See, then, that the People provoked our Lord in that they believed not in Him. Wherefore he saith: [i]They provoked the Holy Spirit;[/i] [i]and he was turned to enmity unto them[/i] [Isa 63.10][i]. [/i]And again (p. 91) He speaks otherwise of them by Isaiah the prophet: [i]Land of Zebulun, land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the nations, a people that sitteth in darkness: ye have seen a great light; and they that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, light is risen upon them[/i] [Isa 9.1-2; Mt 4.15-16][i]. They that sit in darkness [/i]He said concerning those who have believed in our Lord Jesus from (among) the People. For by reason of the blindness of the People a great darkness was round about them. For they saw Jesus, but that He is the Christ they knew not; and they understood Him not, neither from the writings of the prophets nor from His works and His healings. But to you of the People who have believed in Jesus we say: [b][u][color="#0000ff"]Learn how the Scripture [color="#ff0000"](prophecies)[/color] bears witness to us and saith, [i]they have seen a great light[/i][/color][/u][/b][i][color="#0000ff"].[/color] [/i]You then who have believed in Him [i]have seen a great light, [/i]even Jesus Christ our Lord; and they also shall see who are (yet) to believe in Him, But [i]they that sit in the shadow of death [/i]are you who are of the Gentiles; [b][u][color="#0000ff"]for you were [i]in the shadow of death, [/i]because you had set your hope on the worship of idols, and knew not God[/color][/u][/b]. But when Jesus Christ our Lord and Teacher appeared to us, [i]light rose upon you, [/i]for you beheld and set your hope on the promise of the kingdom everlasting; and you have departed from the customs and practices of (your) former error, and no more serve idols as you were wont to serve them, but have already believed and been baptized in Him: and [i]a great light is risen upon you.[/i][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]Thus then, [b][u][color="#0000ff"]because the People were not obedient, they were made darkness[/color][/u][/b]; but the hearing of the ear of you who are of [[187]] the Gentiles was made light [color="#ff0000"](Speculation until the light is in them)[/color] [cf. Ps 18.45 (17.45 LXX)]. Wherefore, do you pray and intercede for them, and especially in the days of the Pascha [color="#ff0000"](Passover[/color]), that by your prayers they may be found worthy of forgiveness, and may return to our Lord Jesus Christ.[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][v. 17] It behoves you then, our brethren, in the days of the Pascha to make inquiry with diligence and to keep your fast with all care. And do you [color="#0000ff"][b]make a beginning when your brethren who are of the People keep the Passover[/b]. For [b][u]when our Lord and Teacher ate the Passover with us[/u][/b] [/color][color="#ff0000"](Last supper because Passover was not until the next day), [/color]He was betrayed by Judas after that hour; and immediately we began to be sorrowful, because He was taken from us. [/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"](What Follows is the equivalent of Matthew 26. Matthew 26 and Mark 14 places this event on the 12 of Nissan as it is currently recorded today, yet this Bishop is allegedly quoting by the pen of Matt with a very different perception of Time for when this event took place.)[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]By the number of the moon, [u][color="#0000ff"]as we count according to the reckoning of the believing [b]Hebrews[/b][/color][/u], [b][u][color="#0000ff"]on the tenth of the moon, on the second day of the week[/color][/u][/b], (p. 92) [i]the priests and elders of the people assembled and came to the court of Caiaphas the high priest; and they took counsel to apprehend Jesus and put him to death: but they feared, saying: Not in the festival, lest the people make a tumult[/i] [Mt 26.3-5][i]; [/i]for all men [i]were hanging upon Him[/i] [Lk 19.48][i], [/i]and [i]they held him for a prophet [/i][Mt 21.46] on account of His miracles of healing which He did among them. But [color="#800080"][b][i][u]Jesus was [/u][/i][u]that day [i]in the house of Simon the leper[/i][/u][/b] [/color](anointing in Bethany by Mary Magdalene) [Mt 26.6][i], [/i]and we together with Him, and He related to us that which was about to happen to Him. But Judas went out privily from us, thinking that he would evade our Lord, and went to the house of Caiaphas where the chief priests and elders were assembled, and said to them: [i]What will ye give me, and I will betray Him to you [/i]when I have found an occasion? [i]But they appointed [/i][[188]] [i]and gave him thirty pieces of silver[/i] [Mt 26.15][i]. [/i]And he said to them: 'Make ready young men armed, because of His disciples, that if He go forth by night to a desert place I may come and lead you.' And they made ready the young men and prepared to seize Him. And Judas [i]was watching, when he might find him an occasion to betray him[/i] [Mt 26.16].[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][/size][/font]But by reason of the multitudes of all the people, from every city and from all the villages, who were coming up to the temple to keep the Passover in Jerusalem, the priests and elders took counsel and commanded and appointed that they should keep the festival straightway, that they might seize Him without disturbance. For the inhabitants of Jerusalem were engaged with the sacrifice and the eating of the Passover; and moreover, all the people that were without were not yet come, for they had deceived them as to the days. That they might be convicted before God of erring utterly in all things, therefore they [color="#0000ff"][b][u]anticipated the Passover by three days, and kept it on the eleventh of the moon[/u][/b], [b][u]on the third day of the week[/u][/b].[/color] For they said: 'Because the whole people is gone astray after Him, now that we have an occasion let us seize Him; and then, when all the people are come, let us put Him to death before all, that this may be known openly, and all the people may turn back from after Him.'[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][b][u][color="#0000ff"]And so in the night when the fourth day of the week drew on, (Judas) betrayed our Lord to them. But they made the payment to Judas on the tenth of the month, on the second day of the week[/color];[/u][/b] wherefore they were accounted by God as though on the second day of the week they had seized Him, [[189]] because on the second of the week they had taken counsel to seize Him and put Him to death; and they accomplished their malice on the Friday: as Moses had said concerning the Passover, thus: [i]It shall be kept by you [/i](p. 93) [i]from the tenth until the fourteenth: and then all Israel shall sacrifice the Passover[/i][i] [/i][Ex 12.6][i].[/i][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][v. 18] Therefore you shall fast in the days of the Pascha from the tenth, which is the second day of the week; and you shall sustain yourselves with bread and salt and water only, at the ninth hour, until the fifth day of the week. But on the Friday and on the Sabbath fast wholly, and taste nothing. [v. 19] You shall come together and watch and keep vigil all the night with prayers and intercessions, and with reading of the Prophets, and with the Gospel and with Psalms, with fear and trembling and with earnest supplication, [b][color="#0000ff"]until the third hour in the night after the Sabbath[/color][/b]; and then break your fasts. For thus did we also fast, when our Lord suffered, for a testimony of the three days; and we were keeping vigil and praying and interceding for the destruction of the People, because that they erred and confessed not our Savior.(A speculation being presented as if it is the testimony of an apostle speaking in the first person form) So do you also pray that the Lord may not remember their guilt against them unto the end for the guile which they used against our Lord, but may grant them a place of repentance and conversion, and forgiveness of their wickedness. [/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]For he who was a heathen and of a foreign people [cf. Gosp. of Peter 1], Pilate [[190]] the judge, did not consent to their deeds of wickedness, but [i]took water and washed his hands, and said: I am innocent of the blood of this man[/i] [Mt 27.24][i]. [/i]But the People answered and said: [i]His blood be upon us, and upon our children[/i] [Mt 27.25][i]; [/i]and Herod commanded that He should be crucified [cf. Gosp. of Peter 1]; and our Lord suffered for us on the Friday. Especially incumbent on you therefore is the fast of the Friday and of the Sabbath; and likewise the vigil and watching of the Sabbath, and the reading of the Scriptures, and psalms, and prayer and intercession for them that have sinned, and the expectation and hope of the resurrection of our Lord Jesus, [b][color="#0000ff"]until the third hour in the night after the Sabbath[/color].[/b] And then offer your oblations; and thereafter eat and make good cheer, and rejoice and be glad, because that the earnest of our resurrection, Christ, is risen. And this shall be a law to you for ever, unto the end of the world (possible commandment of men). For to those who have not believed in our Savior He is dead, because their hope in Him is dead; but to you who believe, our Lord and Savior is risen, because your hope in Him is immortal and living for ever. [/size][/font] [color="#ff0000"][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]It's safe to say by this point based on the perceptions presented; that Catholic Oral traditions in his day spoke that Christ Rose from the tomb 3 hours after sunset into the first day of the week and that Christ was taken captive on a Tuesday night. This of course means that the Catholic and protestant divisions of Catholicism cannot rely on oral traditions of men to find truth about God. [/size][/font] [/color] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]Fast then on the Friday, because thereon the People killed themselves in crucifying our Savior; and on the Sabbath also, because it is the sleep (p. 94) of our Lord; for it is a day which ought especially to be kept with fasting: even as blessed Moses also, the prophet of all (things touching) this matter, commanded. For because he knew by the Holy Spirit and it was commanded him by Almighty God, who knew what the People were to do to His Son and His beloved Jesus Christ, -- as even then they denied Him in the person of Moses, and said: [i]W ho hath appointed thee head and judge over us?[/i] [Ex 2.14][i] [/i]-- Therefore he bound them beforehand with mourning perpetually, in that he set apart and appointed the Sabbath for them. For they deserved to mourn, because they denied their Life, and laid [[191]] hands upon their Savior and delivered Him to death. Wherefore, already from that time there was laid upon them a mourning for their destruction.[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][v. 20] But let us observe and see, brethren, that most men in their mourning imitate the Sabbath; and they likewise who keep Sabbath imitate mourning. For he that mourns kindles no light: neither do the People on the Sabbath, because of the commandment of Moses; for so it was commanded them by him [cf. Ex 35.3]. [b][color="#0000ff"]He that mourns takes no bath: nor yet the People on the Sabbath. He that mourns does not prepare a table: neither do the People on the Sabbath, but prepare and lay for themselves the evening before[/color][/b] (Promoting the Sabbath though not correctly, Did Jesus ever Fast or mourn on the Sabbath? He made it a healing celebration based on the works he accomplished with the sick) [cf. Ex 16.29]; because they have a presentiment of mourning, seeing that they were to lay hands on Jesus. He that mourns does no work, and does not speak, but sits in sorrow: so too the People on the Sabbath; for it was said to the People concerning the mourning of the Sabbath thus: [i]Thou shalt not lift thy foot to do any work, and thou shalt speak no word out of thy mouth[/i] [Isa 58.13 LXX][i]. [/i]Now who testifies that the Sabbath is a mourning for them? The Scripture testifies, and saith: [i]Then shall the people lament, family over against family[/i]: [i]the family of the house of Levi apart, and their women apart; the house of Judah apart, and their women apart[/i] [Zech 12.12-13][i]: [/i]even as, after the mourning of Christ until now, on the ninth of the month of Ab (August) they come together and read the Lamentations of Jeremiah [[192]] and wail and lament. Now nine represents [i]Theta; [/i]but [i]Theta [/i]denotes God. For God therefore they lament, even for Christ who suffered -- rather, on account of God our Savior, but over themselves and their own destruction. Does any man lament, brethren, except he have a grief? [b][color="#0000ff"]Therefore do you also mourn for them on the day of the Sabbath of the Pascha (p. 95) until the third hour in the night following; and thereafter, in the Resurrection of Christ[/color][/b], rejoice and make good cheer for their sake, and break your fast; and the surplus of your fast of six days offer to the Lord God, And let those of you who have abundance or worldly possessions minister diligently to those who are poor and needy and refresh them, that the reward of your fast may be received.[/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][color="#0000ff"][b][u]Wherever, then, the Fourteenth of the Pascha falls, so keep it; for neither the month nor the day squares with the same season every year, but is variable[/u][/b]. [b][u]When therefore that People keeps the Passover, do you fast; and be careful to perform your vigil within their (feast of) unleavened bread[/u][/b][/color]. But on the first day of the week make good cheer at all times; for he is guilty of sin, whosoever afflicts his soul on the first of the ac week. And hence it is not lawful, apart from the Pascha, for anyone to fast during those three hours of the night between the Sabbath and the first of the week, because that night belongs to the first of the week; but in the [color="#0000ff"][b][u]Pascha alone you are to fast these three hours of that night, being assembled together, you who are Christians, in the Lord[/u][/b]. [[193]][/color][/size][/font] [color="#ff0000"][size="3"]Some facts about the didascalia document. [/size] [font="Times New Roman"][size="4"]Troughout the Didascalia Apostolorum (a Catholic product from the 2nd to 3rd century) it references the Catholic Church 17 times claiming authorhsip of this document by the pen of the very apostles themselves. I listed just a few of these claims below. Based on my time line study built on prophecy (the testimony of Jesus) the errors presented in this Catholic document become very clear. Then shatters the Catholic Claim of Oral traditions and then shatters the speculation of divine inspiration of the 4 bible gospels we have today which keep men baring false witness on may issues, ever learning and never comeing to the truth (God).[/size][/font] [/color] [font="Times New Roman"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]"When therefore the whole Church was in peril of falling into heresy, all [b][u]we the twelve Apostles came together to Jerusalem[/u][/b] and took thought what should be done. And [i]it seemed good to us, being all of one accord [/i][Acts 15.25][i], [/i]to write [b][u]this Catholic Didascalia[/u][/b] for the confirming of you all."[/color][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][color="#0000ff"][size="4"]"Hear these things then, ye laymen also, the elect [b][u]Church of God[/u][/b]. For the former People also was called a [[86]] church; but you are the [b][u]Catholic Church[/u][/b], the holy and perfect, [i]a royal priesthood, a holy multitude, a people for inheritance"[/i][/size][/color][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]"Hear, thou [b][u]Catholic Church[/u][/b] of God, that wast delivered from the ten plagues"[/color][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]"because you have pleased men, and have turned back from the truth of God, through respect of persons and the habit of receiving empty gifts: and you will have scattered the [b][u]Catholic Church[/u][/b], the beloved daughter of the Lord God. [[109]]"[/color][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]"you have been the arbiters of an unjust judgement, and therefore shall be requited by God accordingly, and cast out of the [b][u]Catholic Church[/u][/b] of God. And that shall be fulfilled in your case"[/color][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]"that is [b][u]His holy Catholic Church[/u][/b], that they might [[119]] be glad and rejoicing, and be praising (p. 56) and glorifying God who called them to life."[/color][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]"Nay, but the things of the world are your care, and you attend to the affairs of this life and scorn to betake yourselves to the [b][u]Catholic Church, the beloved daughter of the Lord God Most High,[/u][/b] that you may receive the teaching of God which endures for ever and is able to save them that receive the word of life."[/color][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]"Now already we had rightly preached the holy word of [b][u]the Catholic Church[/u][/b]; and we returned once more to come to the Churches, and found men occupied"[/color][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]"Now the epistle we sent; but we ourselves remained [[210]] in Jerusalem many days; and we were consulting and ordering together those things which were for the advantage of all the people, and writing [b][u]also this Catholic Didascalia[/u][/b]."[/color][/size][/font] [font="Times New Roman"][color="#0000ff"][size="4"][b][u]"Those heretics who receive (not) His Holy Scriptures, or receive them ill, in hypocrisy with blaspheming, who with evil words blaspheme the Catholic Church which is the receptacle of the Holy Spirit[/u][/b]: it is they who, before the judgment"[/size][/color][/font] [size="4"]Very respectfully, [/size][size="4"]Todd M. Vetter[/size] Edited December 5, 2009 by todd_vetter33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-Memphis Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Mr. Vetter, do you honestly think very many (if any) people read your 10 page diatribes you insist on dropping off in the forum? Just wondering what you hope to accomplish by this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servus_Mariae Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 (edited) "What's Your Authority?" This is nothing fancy, just a little script you might learn from. In Catholic Answers’ seminars we try to emphasize the point that you should always demand that a missionary who comes to your door first establish his authority for what he is going to tell you, and only then proceed to discuss the particular issues he has in mind. By "authority," we don’t mean his personal or academic credentials. We mean his authority to claim he can rightly interpret the Bible. The missionary (unless he is a Mormon, of course, in which case his authority is the Book of Mormon) will always claim to fall back on the authority of Scripture. "Scripture says this" or "Scripture proves that," he will tell you. So before you turn to the verses he brings up, and thus to the topic he brings up, demand that he demonstrate a few things. First, ask him to prove from the Bible that the Bible is the only rule of faith (if he’s an Evangelical or Fundamentalist Protestant he holds to the Reformation theory of sola scriptura—the Bible alone). Second, have him tell you how he knows which books belong in the Bible in the first place. And third, require that he prove to you both that he has the authority to interpret the Bible for you (remember that his doctrines will almost always be drawn from interpretations of the sacred text rather than the words themselves) and that his interpretations will always be accurate. Imagine the conversation goes something like this: "Good afternoon, neighbor. May I share a few words of Christian truth with you?" "Sure," you say. "Where do you get this truth?" "From the Bible, of course." "That’s your authority? The Bible?" "Yes, it’s the only authority for Christians." "Can you prove that from the Bible?" "What do you mean?" "I mean I don’t believe the Bible claims to be the sole rule of faith. I mean the doctrine of sola scriptura is itself unbiblical. Please show me where the Bible claims such a status for itself." A Sufficient Rule of Faith? At this point the missionary probably will bring up one of several verses. The passage most commonly brought up by Evangelicals and Fundamentalists is 2 Timothy 3:16–17. In the King James Version, the verse reads this way: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteous- ness; That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Many claim that 2 Timothy 3:16–17 claims Scripture is sufficient as a rule of faith. But an examination of the verse in context shows that it doesn’t claim that at all; it only claims Scripture is "profitable" (Greek: ophelimos) that is, helpful. Many things can be profitable for moving one toward a goal, without being sufficient in getting one to the goal. Notice that the passage nowhere even hints that Scripture is "sufficient"—which is, of course, exactly what Protestants think the passage means. Point out that the context of 2 Timothy 3:16–17 is Paul laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of Scripture and tradition in his ministry as a bishop. Paul says, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:14–17). In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (RSV), and ". . . what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13). Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy’s ministry. The few other verses that might be brought up to "prove" the sufficiency of Scripture can be handled the same way. Not one uses the word "sufficient"—each one implies profitability or usefulness, and many are given at the same time as an exhortation to hold fast to the oral teaching of our Lord and the apostles. The thing to keep in mind is that nowhere does the Bible say, "Scripture alone is sufficient," and nowhere does the Bible imply it. Understanding the Bible’s Role After you have demonstrated that the verses the missionary brings up simply don’t prove this point, continue the discussion this way: "If you recognize Scripture for what it is, you’ll see it wasn’t intended to be an instructional tool for converts. In fact, not one book of the Bible was written for non-believers. The Old Testament books were written for Jews, the New Testament books for people who already were Christians. "The Bible is not a catechism or a full-scale theological treatise. Just look at the 27 books of the New Testament. You won’t find one that spells out the elements of the faith the way catechisms do or even the way the ancient creeds did. Those 27 books were written for the most part (excepting, for example, the Gospels and the general epistles such as James and, 1 and 2 Peter) as provisional documents addressed to particular audiences for particular purposes. "Most of the epistles," you continue, "were written to local churches that were experiencing moral and/or doctrinal problems. Paul and most of the other New Testament writers sent letters to these local churches (e.g., 1 and 2 Corinthians and Galatians) in order to rectify these problems. There was no attempt on the part of the writers to impart a vast body of basic doctrinal instruction to non-believers nor even to simply summarize everything for the believers who received the letters." "I don’t agree with any of that," replies the missionary. "The New Testament is the basis of the Christian faith." "But how can it be," you respond, "since the Christian faith existed and flourished for years before the first book of the New Testament was written? The books of the New Testament were composed decades after Christ ascended into heaven, and it took centuries for there to be general agreement among Christians as to which books comprised the New Testament. "And that brings up another point. How do you know what constitutes the New Testament canon? How do you know for certain that these 27 books here in your New Testament are in fact inspired and should be in the New Testament? And how do you know for certain that maybe some inspired books haven’t been left out of the canon?" Who Decided? "Well, the early Christians agreed on the 27 books," answers the missionary. "The Holy Spirit led them to this agreement." "Sure the Holy Spirit did, but only over a pretty long period of time, and a study of early Christian history shows that there was a considerable disagreement among Christians until the issue of the canon was finally settled. Some early Christians said the book of Revelation didn’t belong in the canon. Others said Pope Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians (written circa A.D. 80) and The Shepherd, an early second-century allegory written by a Christian writer named Hermas did belong in the New Testament. How do you handle that?" "We know by examining the contents of the books. Some books—like 1 Corinthians and Revelation—obviously belong. Others—like Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians—obviously don’t." "But is it really so obvious? Tell me, what is so obvious in Philemon to indicate that it is inspired? And what is so obviously unorthodox in The Shepherd or the Didache or Clement’s letter or any of the other first- and second-century Christian writings? You’ve never even seen the autographs (originals) of the 27 books in the New Testament. Nobody today has. The earliest copies of those books we possess are centuries newer than the originals. Like it or not, you have to take the say-so of the Catholic Church that in fact those copies are accurate, as well as her decision that those 27 books are the inspired canonical New Testament Scriptures. You do accept her testimony as trustworthy, or else your Protestant Bible would not have those 27 books. See what I mean?" Look to the Fathers If you happen to have the writings of the early Church Fathers, this would be a good time to read from them. The writings are, at least in the case of the apostolic Fathers, rather short, and you can demonstrate that many of these writings seem every bit as orthodox and inspiring (not to confuse the term with "inspired") as the New Testament writings themselves. Then read aloud the book of Philemon or 3 John or some other short canonical book. "Tell me, what’s in these books that so obviously makes them inspired? If you didn’t know that Philemon was written by Paul or that 3 John was written by John, would you give either a second reading? Would you automatically assume they belong in the Bible as canonical Scripture? It’s not disrespectful to say they don’t have much doctrinal content in them—and that’s not surprising, since they’re too short to contain substantial doctrinal discussions. One can imagine the Christian Church surviving well enough without either. "Neither book claims inspiration for itself. If there is, as a matter of fact, more solid Christian doctrine in other, non-canonical writings (that is—if they contain more Christian truths and no religious errors) then how can you say it’s obvious which books are inspired and which aren’t?" Here the missionary will fumble around awhile, perhaps repeating his earlier statements. Then you say: "Look, the fact is, the only reason you and I have the New Testament canon is because of the trustworthy teaching authority of the Catholic Church. As Augustine put it, ‘I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church’ (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5:6). Any Christian accepting the authority of the New Testament does so, whether or not he admits it, because he has implicit trust that the Catholic Church made the right decision in determining the canon. "The fact is that the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church over time to recognize and determine the canon of the New and Old Testaments in the year 382 at the synod of Rome, under Pope Damasus I. This decision was ratified again at the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397 and 419). You, my friend, accept exactly the same books of the New Testament that Pope Damasus decreed were canonical, and no others. "Furthermore, the reason you accept the books you do is that they were in the Bible someone gave you when you first became a Christian. You accept them because they were handed on to you. This means you accept the canon of the New Testament that you do because of tradition, because tradition is simply what is handed on to us from those who were in the faith before us. So your knowledge of the exact books that belong in the Bible, such as Philemon and 3 John, rests on tradition rather than on Scripture itself! "The question you have to ask yourself is this: ‘Where did we get the Bible?’ Until you can give a satisfactory answer, you aren’t in much of a position to rely on the authority of Scripture or to claim that you can be certain that you know how to accurately interpret it. "After you answer that question—and there’s really only one answer that can be given—you have some other important questions to ask: ‘If the Bible, which we received from the Catholic Church, is our sole rule of faith, who’s to do the interpreting?’ And ‘Why are there so many conflicting understandings among Evangelicals and Fundamentalists even on central doctrines that pertain to salvation?’" "We Agree on the Essentials" "Well, that I can answer easily enough," responds the missionary. "Evangelicals and Fundamentalists agree on the essentials, but we disagree on secondary matters." "Is that so? Where in Scripture do we find some doctrines listed as essential, others as ‘secondary’? The answer is: ‘nowhere’. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists disagree on central issues such as baptismal regeneration and the necessity of baptism (is it merely a sign to other Christians, or does it have a real role in the process of justification?), whether or not one can forfeit salvation (some Protestants say that’s impossible to do, others say it is possible). You all claim to be ‘Bible-only Christians,’ but which group is right?" [url="http://http://www.catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp"]LINK[/url] Scripture and Tradition Protestants claim the Bible is the only rule of faith, meaning that it contains all of the material one needs for theology and that this material is sufficiently clear that one does not need apostolic tradition or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it. In the Protestant view, the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages. Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrong—and may well hinder one in coming to God. Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly. In the Second Vatican Council’s document on divine revelation, Dei Verbum (Latin: "The Word of God"), the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained: "Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. "Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence." But Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants, who place their confidence in Martin Luther’s theory of sola scriptura (Latin: "Scripture alone"), will usually argue for their position by citing a couple of key verses. The first is this: "These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31). The other is this: "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be equipped, prepared for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16–17). According to these Protestants, these verses demonstrate the reality of sola scriptura (the "Bible only" theory). Not so, reply Catholics. First, the verse from John refers to the things written in that book (read it with John 20:30, the verse immediately before it to see the context of the statement in question). If this verse proved anything, it would not prove the theory of sola scriptura but that the Gospel of John is sufficient. Second, the verse from John’s Gospel tells us only that the Bible was composed so we can be helped to believe Jesus is the Messiah. It does not say the Bible is all we need for salvation, much less that the Bible is all we need for theology; nor does it say the Bible is even necessary to believe in Christ. After all, the earliest Christians had no New Testament to which they could appeal; they learned from oral, rather than written, instruction. Until relatively recent times, the Bible was inaccessible to most people, either because they could not read or because the printing press had not been invented. All these people learned from oral instruction, passed down, generation to generation, by the Church. Much the same can be said about 2 Timothy 3:16-17. To say that all inspired writing "has its uses" is one thing; to say that only inspired writing need be followed is something else. Besides, there is a telling argument against claims of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants. John Henry Newman explained it in an 1884 essay entitled "Inspiration in its Relation to Revelation." Newman’s argument He wrote: "It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument whatever that the sacred Scripture, without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for, although sacred Scripture is profitable for these four ends, still it is not said to be sufficient. The Apostle [Paul] requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy. "Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: Some of the Catholic epistles were not written even when Paul wrote this, and none of the books of the New Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books. He refers, then, to the scriptures of the Old Testament, and, if the argument from this passage proved anything, it would prove too much, viz., that the scriptures of the New Testament were not necessary for a rule of faith." Furthermore, Protestants typically read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 out of context. When read in the context of the surrounding passages, one discovers that Paul’s reference to Scripture is only part of his exhortation that Timothy take as his guide Tradition and Scripture. The two verses immediately before it state: "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:14–15). Paul tells Timothy to continue in what he has learned for two reasons: first, because he knows from whom he has learned it—Paul himself—and second, because he has been educated in the scriptures. The first of these is a direct appeal to apostolic tradition, the oral teaching which the apostle Paul had given Timothy. So Protestants must take 2 Timothy 3:16-17 out of context to arrive at the theory of sola scriptura. But when the passage is read in context, it becomes clear that it is teaching the importance of apostolic tradition! The Bible denies that it is sufficient as the complete rule of faith. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). This oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. Jesus told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ" (Rom. 10:17). The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit "Christ’s word" to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing. The Bible nowhere supports either notion. Further, it is clear that the oral teaching of Christ would last until the end of time. "’But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you" (1 Pet. 1:25). Note that the word has been "preached"—that is, communicated orally. This would endure. It would not be supplanted by a written record like the Bible (supplemented, yes, but not supplanted), and would continue to have its own authority. This is made clear when the apostle Paul tells Timothy: "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). Here we see the first few links in the chain of apostolic tradition that has been passed down intact from the apostles to our own day. Paul instructed Timothy to pass on the oral teachings (traditions) that he had received from the apostle. He was to give these to men who would be able to teach others, thus perpetuating the chain. Paul gave this instruction not long before his death (2 Tim. 4:6–8), as a reminder to Timothy of how he should conduct his ministry. What is Tradition? In this discussion it is important to keep in mind what the Catholic Church means by tradition. The term does not refer to legends or mythological accounts, nor does it encompass transitory customs or practices which may change, as circumstances warrant, such as styles of priestly dress, particular forms of devotion to saints, or even liturgical rubrics. Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different. They have been handed down and entrusted to the Churchs. It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16). The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13). Handing on the faith Paul illustrated what tradition is: "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed" (1 Cor. 15:3,11). The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2). The first Christians "devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching" (Acts 2:42) long before there was a New Testament. From the very beginning, the fullness of Christian teaching was found in the Church as the living embodiment of Christ, not in a book. The teaching Church, with its oral, apostolic tradition, was authoritative. Paul himself gives a quotation from Jesus that was handed down orally to him: "It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35). This saying is not recorded in the Gospels and must have been passed on to Paul. Indeed, even the Gospels themselves are oral tradition which has been written down (Luke 1:1–4). What’s more, Paul does not quote Jesus only. He also quotes from early Christian hymns, as in Ephesians 5:14. These and other things have been given to Christians "through the Lord Jesus" (1 Thess. 4:2). Fundamentalists say Jesus condemned tradition. They note that Jesus said, "And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3). Paul warned, "See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ" (Col. 2:8). But these verses merely condemn erroneous human traditions, not truths which were handed down orally and entrusted to the Church by the apostles. These latter truths are part of what is known as apostolic tradition, which is to be distinguished from human traditions or customs. "Commandments of men" Consider Matthew 15:6–9, which Fundamentalists and Evangelicals often use to defend their position: "So by these traditions of yours you have made God’s laws ineffectual. You hypocrites, it was a true prophecy that Isaiah made of you, when he said, ‘This people does me honor with its lips, but its heart is far from me. Their worship is in vain, for the doctrines they teach are the commandments of men.’" Look closely at what Jesus said. He was not condemning all traditions. He condemned only those that made God’s word void. In this case, it was a matter of the Pharisees feigning the dedication of their goods to the Temple so they could avoid using them to support their aged parents. By doing this, they dodged the commandment to "Honor your father and your mother" (Ex. 20:12). Elsewhere, Jesus instructed his followers to abide by traditions that are not contrary to God’s commandments. "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Matt. 23:2–3). What Fundamentalists and Evangelicals often do, unfortunately, is see the word "tradition" in Matthew 15:3 or Colossians 2:8 or elsewhere and conclude that anything termed a "tradition" is to be rejected. They forget that the term is used in a different sense, as in 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15, to describe what should be believed. Jesus did not condemn all traditions; he condemned only erroneous traditions, whether doctrines or practices, that undermined Christian truths. The rest, as the apostles taught, were to be obeyed. Paul commanded the Thessalonians to adhere to all the traditions he had given them, whether oral or written. The indefectible Church The task is to determine what constitutes authentic tradition. How can we know which traditions are apostolic and which are merely human? The answer is the same as how we know which scriptures are apostolic and which are merely human—by listening to the magisterium or teaching authority of Christ’s Church. Without the Catholic Church’s teaching authority, we would not know with certainty which purported books of Scripture are authentic. If the Church revealed to us the canon of Scripture, it can also reveal to us the "canon of Tradition" by establishing which traditions have been passed down from the apostles. After all, Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church (Matt. 16:18) and the New Testament itself declares the Church to be "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp"]Link[/url] Skipped all the way down here didn't you? I have seen your posts...er...your posts from other people. While I am sure you are striving to prove a point and out of love for us are trying to bring us closer to Christ, which I applaud you for, you are not doing it this way...I assure you. Please make your point, give valid sources, and grant a conclusion succinctly so that we engage in dialogue. Edited December 5, 2009 by Servus_Mariae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-Memphis Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 [quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='04 December 2009 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1259987565' post='2014705'] [url="http://http://www.catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp"]LINK[/url] Skipped all the way down here didn't you? I have seen your posts...er...your posts from other people. While I am sure you are striving to prove a point and out of love for us are trying to bring us closer to Christ, which I applaud you for, you are not doing it this way...I assure you. Please make your point, give valid sources, and grant a conclusion. [/quote] Ditto to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 [img]http://www.kattywampus.com/mousedrawn/TLDR.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='04 December 2009 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1259987901' post='2014713'] [img]http://www.kattywampus.com/mousedrawn/TLDR.gif[/img] [/quote] What does that mean? I've been curious for a while now. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='04 December 2009 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1259987924' post='2014714'] What does that mean? I've been curious for a while now. Thanks. [/quote] "Too Long, Didn't Read" I believe. I don't get the pic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 [img]http://newsimg.ngfiles.com/121000/121620_intertank.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd_vetter33 Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 [quote name='Drew-Memphis' date='04 December 2009 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1259987442' post='2014702'] [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/getaclue.gif[/img] Mr. Vetter, do you honestly think very many (if any) people read your 10 page diatribes you insist on dropping off in the forum? Just wondering what you hope to accomplish by this? [/quote] I claim the Catholic and Christian churches misrepresent God. If your not humble enought to test the evendence then you make the grave you lie in. God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' date='04 December 2009 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1259987954' post='2014715'] "Too Long, Didn't Read" I believe. I don't get the pic... [/quote] When you say tl;dr out loud it sounds like Teal Deer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' date='04 December 2009 - 11:39 PM' timestamp='1259987954' post='2014715'] "Too Long, Didn't Read" I believe. I don't get the pic... [/quote] Thanks! I always thought it meant Teal Deer. lulz. Btw, I did a search right after I asked and Urban Dictionary says: [i]Literally, "Too long; didn't read" Said whenever a nerd makes a post that is too long to bother reading.[/i] So you're right on mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-Memphis Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='04 December 2009 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1259987901' post='2014713'] [img]http://www.kattywampus.com/mousedrawn/TLDR.gif[/img] [/quote] ROFL I did have to google it but here's the official unofficial definition... [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tl%3Bdr"]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tl%3Bdr[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Yea, it's definitely "too long didn't read", but the teal deer is because it sounds like you're literally saying "teal deer". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='04 December 2009 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1259988007' post='2014719'] When you say tl;dr out loud it sounds like Teal Deer. [/quote] Wow. Just. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' date='04 December 2009 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1259988114' post='2014723'] Wow. Just. Wow. [/quote] Hey, I clearly did not invent it. It's a 4chan thing. Like most memes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now