Why Atheists Make No Sense To Me...

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='11 December 2009 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1260576990' post='2018699']
We read Peter Kreeft's Fundamentals of the Faith: Essays on Christian Apologetics in my theology class and in it, the author discussed the five proofs for God. Not all of them seem to hold up with everybody, but how an atheist could get past the unmoved mover and argument from design are mysteries to me. Even Einstein believed in the argument from design. We also read Mere Christianity. C.S. Lewis one of my favorite authors.
[/quote]
To be really honest, I've heard and debated the design and first cause arguments, and I'm not even convinced they're valid. Certainly there are counter arguments that are just as good. I don't like philosophy divorced from theology. At least not when the philosophy is about God.

[little_miss_late]

[quote name='XIX' date='10 December 2009 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1260490512' post='2017980']
They make their arguments for why there can not possibly be a God. Fair enough.

Then, they make a case that religion causes a great deal of harm, or that belief in God is not necessary to cause good. But here's the problem: belief in God or some sort of eternal result is absolutely necessary for there to be any such thing as good or evil. If this is it, then nothing that happens, matters, because everything will end and we will all turn out exactly the same for the next 80 quadrillion millenia of time.

The weighted average of (x*80 + y*infinity)/(80+infinity) = y, where y = nonexistence and x = however our lives go for the 80 years we have on earth. Life matters for whatever length of time we have here. And then

Atheists are supposed to be logical. I can't think of anything more cold-bloodedly logical and analytical than the above. If there is no God and no life or existence after what we have right now, then nothing matters. Nothing. Matters. Not the most horrible mostrosity or the most incredible deed.

This isn't an argument against atheism. If I was an atheist and was presented with this argument, I'd just say "Fine. Then nothing in the world carries any actual meaning."

I'm just amazed at how often atheists act like there is really good and evil in the world. It is incompatible with their (lack of) religion.

meh
[/quote]

I am surprised at how many people who call themselves Christians act in ways that are incompatible with their stated beliefs too. Just saying. Because you don't understand why some atheists are good, doesn't mean that there are not good atheists.

Sometimes when I hear statements like yours from religious people, what I hear them saying is that they think they would be bad people without their faith. I would like to believe that some of the Christians I know would be just as good if they lost their faith.

edit to add:

FWIW, atheists make no sense to me either. But it makes sense to me that they can be good.

Edited December 12, 2009 by little_miss_late

[Varg]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 December 2009 - 05:32 PM' timestamp='1260570737' post='2018676']
Lying, stealing, and murdering could often have effects beneficial to the person committing the action. For example, someone could murder the person getting in the way of his becoming king.
[/quote]
You've been reading too much Macbeth.

The person would not murder because murder is morally wrong.

[Varg]

[quote name='apparently' date='11 December 2009 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1260572978' post='2018683']
No one could be that dim-witted, not to see the divine hand of God, in all things great or small.

Thinking, choosing and the abilities of our free will are unknown to all other forms of life, mankind alone is so blessed.
[/quote]
We don't know "all other forms of life"

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Varg' date='12 December 2009 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1260634303' post='2019091']
The person would not murder because murder is morally wrong.
[/quote]
Why? Do you have a basis for that statement? What are morals?

[add]

[quote name='Varg' date='12 December 2009 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1260634380' post='2019093']
We don't know "all other forms of life"
[/quote]

"all other forms of life" on earth, plants, animals, microbes or even your dog "Fido"

Edited December 12, 2009 by apparently

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='11 December 2009 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1260585782' post='2018777']
I would like to believe that some of the Christians I know would be just as good if they lost their faith.
[/quote]

It seems you have a flawed definition of what "good" means. A Catholic who knowingly and willingly committed the grave sin of apostasy would [i]ipso facto[/i] become a worse person than he was when he was not committing that sin (provided, of course, everything else remains about him remained the same.)

Edited December 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Varg]

[quote name='apparently' date='12 December 2009 - 11:22 AM' timestamp='1260634950' post='2019097']
"all other forms of life" on earth, plants, animals, microbes or even your dog "Fido"
[/quote]
New species are still being discovered, you know.

Here's a question for theists: if you believe that heaven is perfect and that innocent people go to heaven, why is it wrong to kill an innocent person? Surely you're doing the right thing by taking them out of this imperfect world and putting them into a perfect world?

Edited December 12, 2009 by Varg

[Varg]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 11:26 AM' timestamp='1260635161' post='2019102']
It seems you have a flawed definition of what "good" means. A person committing knowingly and willingly committing the grave sin of apostasy would [i]ipso facto[/i] become a worse person than he was when he was not committing that sin (provided, of course, everything else remains about him remained the same.)
[/quote]
Who's worse: a mean theist or a kind atheist?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Varg' date='12 December 2009 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1260636178' post='2019109']
Who's worse: a mean theist or a kind atheist?
[/quote]

It would depend upon what you mean by "mean".

It would also depend upon whether the "theist" in question were a monotheist or not.

[Varg]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 11:46 AM' timestamp='1260636378' post='2019114']
It would depend upon what you mean by "mean".

It would also depend upon whether the "theist" in question were a monotheist or not.
[/quote]
Ok, a Christian who doesn't give to charity, doesn't help people with troubles they have, doesn't particularly care for other people feelings vs. an atheist who is kind, gives to charity and cares for other people etc.

I said "mean" for lack of a better word

[Fidei Defensor]

Life doesn't make sense. I'm not convinced any beliefs make life any less confusing. That's why I'm apathetic towards having a whole set of beliefs like you guys. More power to you for being able to believe in something. I'm not there.

[Laudate_Dominum]

There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game.
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you.
In time - It's easy.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Varg' date='12 December 2009 - 11:50 AM' timestamp='1260636609' post='2019116']
Ok, a Christian who doesn't give to charity, doesn't help people with troubles they have, doesn't particularly care for other people feelings vs. an atheist who is kind, gives to charity and cares for other people etc.

I said "mean" for lack of a better word
[/quote]

I am assuming that the two hypothetical persons commit all the same actions except the sins that you mentioned: the sin of intentionally failing to give alms on the part of the Christian, and the sin of denying the existence of God on the part of the atheist. I am also assuming that these two persons commit their respective sins knowingly and willingly.

If that is so, than the Christian is a better person, for he is committing less evil than the atheist. For, "A sin which is about the very substance of man, e.g. murder, is graver than a sin which is about external things, e.g. theft; [b]and graver still is a sin committed directly against God[/b][b], e.g. unbelief[/b], blasphemy, and the like." (St. Thomas Aquinas, [i]Summa Theologiae[/i], I-II, Q. 73, Art. 3)

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1260637911' post='2019140']
I am assuming that the two hypothetical persons commit all the same actions except the sins that you mentioned: the sin of intentionally failing to give alms on the part of the Christian, and the sin of denying the existence of God on the part of the atheist. I am also assuming that these two persons commit their respective sins knowingly and willingly.

If that is so, than the Christian is a better person, for he is committing less evil than the atheist. For, "A sin which is about the very substance of man, e.g. murder, is graver than a sin which is about external things, e.g. theft; [b]and graver still is a sin committed directly against God[/b][b], e.g. unbelief[/b], blasphemy, and the like." (St. Thomas Aquinas, [i]Summa Theologiae[/i], I-II, Q. 73, Art. 3)
[/quote]
"Better person" is quite a stretch. All sin is evil. Yes, some are more grave than others but you are really pushing it by saying you're a better person even though you too are sinning.

It's that kind of logic that has let Christian's always claim the "high ground" over everyone else. "well, we're all sinners but you're a filthier sinner and I'm a better person than you so I can tell you what to do and how to act."

Edited December 12, 2009 by fidei defensor