HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1260739022' post='2019796'] Yes. Many people, Christians and non Christians, break the law all the time. The simple fact that this debate board exists and debates happen shows that we humans have the capacity to assign meaning and "rightness" to things. It kind of deals a blow, then, to the whole "objective moral order" thing. It lends support to the idea that there is, in fact, a complex process in the mind for deciding what is right and wrong without the need for an objective right. For example, why don't I kill someone if I know there is no god to punish me? Because there is a lot more to it than it being "wrong." I have emotions. I love my fellow humans, I don't want to end their lives. I have feelings about what happens when I person dies that I would never want to be responsible for. None of that requires me to believe that it's objectively wrong. I can assign it as wrong based on my own reasoning. [/quote] If there is a subjective moral order then one person could argue that to murder is not "wrong."
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1260738128' post='2019781'] I don't get the finnish comment. If its a shot, it needs some work [/quote] Nah, it's just that "we're not so stupid as to..." seems like something a Finnish person would say. *shrug*
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1260739378' post='2019802'] If there is a subjective moral order then one person could argue that to murder is not "wrong." [/quote] I didn't say they couldn't. Most murderers probably argue that the person they killed somehow deserved it. They probably argue that in a way that assumes there is an objective level of what is fair and just. They also probably don't consider the person they killed as a true "person," in that they didn't imagine what it would be like for the person being killed.
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 04:22 PM' timestamp='1260739378' post='2019802'] If there is a subjective moral order then one person could argue that to murder is not "wrong." [/quote] People do. Hence we have war and the death penalty.
Jaime Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1260739420' post='2019803'] Nah, it's just that "we're not so stupid as to..." seems like something a Finnish person would say. *shrug* [/quote] I was more interested in a response to the latter comment.
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1260739550' post='2019805'] I didn't say they couldn't. Most murderers probably argue that the person they killed somehow deserved it. They probably argue that in a way that assumes there is an objective level of what is fair and just. They also probably don't consider the person they killed as a true "person," in that they didn't imagine what it would be like for the person being killed. [/quote] Definately. The majority of murderers either have enough motives to justify it to themselves or are just plain crazy.
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1260738128' post='2019781'] You gotta admit it Varg. How I live my life and what I value, is more important to me than how you live your life. [/quote] Maybe it is. The difference is I don't see it as a bad thing.
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1260739550' post='2019805'] I didn't say they couldn't. Most murderers probably argue that the person they killed somehow deserved it. They probably argue that in a way that assumes there is an objective level of what is fair and just. They also probably don't consider the person they killed as a true "person," in that they didn't imagine what it would be like for the person being killed. [/quote] [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1260739584' post='2019806'] People do. Hence we have war and the death penalty. [/quote] So is it safe to say that you both believe "justice" to be a product of mankind? In other words, human beings have created "justice" and therefore it is subjective?
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1260739584' post='2019806'] People do. Hence we have war and the death penalty. [/quote] Good point.
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1260739736' post='2019811'] So is it safe to say that you both believe "justice" to be a product of mankind? In other words, human beings have created "justice" and therefore it is subjective? [/quote] Define "justice". No one's answered this yet: [quote]Here's a question for theists: if you believe that heaven is perfect and that innocent people go to heaven, why is it wrong to kill an innocent person? Surely you're doing the right thing by taking them out of this imperfect world and putting them into a perfect world? [/quote]
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1260739736' post='2019811'] So is it safe to say that you both believe "justice" to be a product of mankind? In other words, human beings have created "justice" and therefore it is subjective? [/quote] I believe justice is the complicated product of the human mind, yes. It's determined by and at the mercy of whichever mind happens to take enough interest to make decisions and consequences based on an action. The way what is just is decided upon is very subjective and varies from person to person.
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1260739845' post='2019815'] Define "justice". [/quote] Just the basic term in the dictionary. [quote] No one's answered this yet: [/quote] Will get to it in a sec.
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1260739903' post='2019816'] The way what is just is decided upon is very subjective and varies from person to person. [/quote] So then there is no such thing as injustice, if justice is relative?
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1260740000' post='2019819'] So then there is no such thing as injustice, if justice is relative? [/quote] Injustice is as subjective as justice is.
Jaime Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1260739707' post='2019810'] Maybe it is. The difference is I don't see it as a bad thing. [/quote] Your lifestyle is a result of people dying for their beliefs. Lots of people defended Britian over the centuries. Were these bad decisions or do you see these people as heroic?
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote]Here's a question for theists: if you believe that heaven is perfect and that innocent people go to heaven, why is it wrong to kill an innocent person? Surely you're doing the right thing by taking them out of this imperfect world and putting them into a perfect world?[/quote] I'm not quite comfortable with the use of the word "innocent" in this context, because it's not innocence that gets us into Heaven but repentance. With that said though, this question is absurd on many levels. One, the act of taking a human life is inherently evil. Two, life is a gift given to us by God. We are on earth for a reason and God has a plan for us. Removing someone from this world does a disservice to God, that person, yourself, and the world (especially if that person is producing many good fruits).
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1260740062' post='2019820'] Injustice is as subjective as justice is. [/quote] So when you see a news story about some injustice committed (we will say "injustice" according to American law), then you should not get upset by it because injustice is subjective and therefore there is nothing "right" or "wrong" about the act committed?
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1260740146' post='2019821'] Your lifestyle is a result of people dying for their beliefs. Lots of people defended Britian over the centuries. Were these bad decisions or do you see these people as heroic? [/quote] They died for someting worth protecting, I have no doubt that Britain exists. The fact that my ancestry is part Viking, part Celtic and part Odin knows what else goes to show that the people defending this country over the centuries did a pretty lousy job of it, anyway... Edited December 13, 2009 by Varg
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1260740699' post='2019828'] I'm not quite comfortable with the use of the word "innocent" in this context, because it's not innocence that gets us into Heaven but repentance. With that said though, this question is absurd on many levels. One, the act of taking a human life is inherently evil. Two, life is a gift given to us by God. We are on earth for a reason and God has a plan for us. Removing someone from this world does a disservice to God, that person, yourself, and the world (especially if that person is producing many good fruits). [/quote] But what if they're a useless, unemployed waste of space and they're suffering but they're innocent. Would it be the right thing to do?
Jaime Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1260740838' post='2019830'] They died for someting worth protecting, I have no doubt that Britain exists. The fact that my ancestry is part Viking, part Celtic and part Odin knows what else goes to show that the people defending this country over the centuries did a pretty lousy job of it, anyway... [/quote] So what you're saying is your beliefs aren't worth protecting.
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