Why Atheists Make No Sense To Me...

[God the Father]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1260640581' post='2019172']
If you do not believe that God's laws determine what is right or wrong, then why does your religious status say "Catholic"?
[/quote]

I do believe God's laws determine what is right or wrong. I think. Maybe I'm a little confused on the matter. I think that's my right as an inquisitive being. But my main point is not that God's laws do not determine what is right or wrong, but that there are justifiable belief systems to the contrary. Much like there are justifiable religions aside from Catholicism. My religious status says catholic because I was baptized a catholic and that's what I call myself when asked. I don't claim to be a good catholic. I do go to catholic school if that counts for anything. I do believe that tolerance of other beliefs is essential for a functioning society and one of the tenets my nation was founded upon by bright people. I'm not inclined to dismiss my jewish, protestant, athiest, etc. friends as "bad" people because their versions of religious morality differ from yours.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='God the Father' date='12 December 2009 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1260646148' post='2019240']
I do believe God's laws determine what is right or wrong. I think. [/quote]

[quote]that there are justifiable belief systems to the contrary. Much like there are justifiable religions aside from Catholicism[/quote]

How do you resolve the above two quotes? You admit that God determines what is right and wrong, yet you are also saying that there are justifiable other belief systems? The problem that the second quote makes God optional or irrelevant which is conflict with the first which states that God is the arbiter.

So is God the arbiter or not? Or do you believe He created multiple belief systems with moral contradictions all leading to Him, thus showing that morals ultimately DO NOT matter?

[quote]I'm not inclined to dismiss my jewish, protestant, athiest, etc. friends as "bad" people because their versions of religious morality differ from yours.[/quote]

Bear in mind that when we speak of "our morality" we mean God's morality. So when we argue our morality versus others, we are saying that others religious morality is in conflict with God. We are not saying they are bad people. God seems to be saying it though. I mean...that's a fact.

[ChildoftheCreator]

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='12 December 2009 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1260645528' post='2019238']
I should have said this: When I hear Christians talk about how they can't understand why atheists believe in good and evil, sometimes what I hear is that they think they would behave immorally if not for their active participation in religious life. I would like to believe that the "good" Christians I know would continue to act morally in the world if they were not Christians.
[/quote]

This is interesting. I don't know that I would behave immorally, but my morals would definitely be different if I did not believe in the RC. I would definitely act on my SSA, for one thing. And I probably would gossip more. But I don't find that atheists are necessarily worse people than others. I think that sexuality is probably the biggest thing that we have differences over.

I think for me, when I say that I don't understand how atheists can believe in good and evil, is not that I'm trying to say that they are horrible people, or that they should be horrible people by my standards, it is that I truly cannot comprehend this. What is this belief based on, because I thought that atheists were without beliefs. I have thought this over again and again, but I cannot seem to comprehend it. I can accept that they follow some type of morals, but I don't see how they could justify them objectively. Is it just what they think will make the world a happier place to live in for everyone including themselves? Or is it something else?

Are morals just something to make sense of life? I have been trying to figure this out for the last year, but I cannot come to a definitive answer as to what would make a moral a moral without a God or an afterlife. Maybe I want a black and white answer to something that is grey.

[Nihil Obstat]

What I've said from the start is not that atheists have no morals, it's that I believe it is inconsistent with atheism to have morals. I fully admit that they, and probably everyone else in the world, has some inconsistent beliefs.

[Winchester]

There is no dogma unique to the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. You are Catholic. The Roman part just denotes the liturgical rite to which you belong.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='God the Father' date='12 December 2009 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1260639957' post='2019164']
The idea that a religious belief can elevate one person's morality over another person's is ridiculous to me and seems wildly intolerant.

Morality without God has been postulated and justified (with debatable efficiency and quality) for centuries. According to Kant, morality comes from the categorical imperative, an a priori moral commandment derived from practical reason. It's pretty out there. According to Mill, morality comes from the Greatest Happiness Principle, which is a mathematical directive which states morality is derived from aggregate pleasure and the absence of pain. Which seems a little closer to earth. Nieztsche said morality is an ancient social construct derived from etymology that got turned on its head. who knows. For whatever reason, these men are renowned and their work is taught which probably means people made sense of this at some point. Meaning God is not necessarily necessary to make certain things good and bad.
[/quote]

But Kant said God was essential to morality.

As for the others,

Mill had a nervous break down and was always going off about "white devils."
Nietzsche went nuts too, ended up standing out in the rain hugging a horse.

So you have one guy who agrees with Christians and two other guys who lost their marbles.

Which further begs the question, does atheism proceed from an irrational mind ...?

[Winchester]

Without an eternal being, there is not eternal being. Morals thus are not really real without a god.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 December 2009 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1260658982' post='2019346']
There is no dogma unique to the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. You are Catholic.
[/quote]

Indeed! All Catholics, whether Western or Eastern, are bound to hold the same dogmas.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='12 December 2009 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1260659257' post='2019354']
But Kant said God was essential to morality.

As for the others,

Mill had a nervous break down and was always going off about "white devils."
Nietzsche went nuts too, ended up standing out in the rain hugging a horse.

So you have one guy who agrees with Christians and two other guys who lost their marbles.

Which further begs the question, does atheism proceed from an irrational mind ...?
[/quote]

+100

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='12 December 2009 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1260659257' post='2019354']
So you have one guy who agrees with Christians and two other guys who lost their marbles.

Which further begs the question, does atheism proceed from an irrational mind ...?
[/quote]
Watch it. I think there are many people, even here, who would be offended by your inference that mental illness somehow makes someone's opinions less valid.

[Winchester]

Thanks.

[add]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='12 December 2009 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1260662984' post='2019411']
Watch it. I think there are many people, even here, who would be offended by your inference that mental illness somehow makes someone's opinions less valid.
[/quote]

you may not understand that there are many people who value your inference because of faith in God above.
take you best shot

[Varg]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1260639112' post='2019152']
What defines a "better" or a "worse" persons (in my view) relies on one's closeness to God, for God is the highest good.
[/quote]
Countess Bathory was a Christian. She tourtured and killed over 600 people. Is she a better person than an atheist who's never harmed anyone?

[Varg]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 December 2009 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1260658908' post='2019345']
What I've said from the start is not that atheists have no morals, it's that I believe it is inconsistent with atheism to have morals. I fully admit that they, and probably everyone else in the world, has some inconsistent beliefs.
[/quote]
How can it be inconsisstent with being an atheist? Atheists are humans. Humans have innate morals. It's like having eyes. One can't help it.

[ChildoftheCreator]

[quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 06:08 AM' timestamp='1260702528' post='2019615']
How can it be inconsisstent with being an atheist? Atheists are humans. Humans have innate morals. It's like having eyes. One can't help it.
[/quote]

Ok, so morals are innate? Is that essentially where morals come from and you base what you do as good or bad on whether or not it makes you have an uneasy feeling in the pit of your stomache? Is there anything that doesn't feel wrong, but you intellectually know that it is? What about racism, I have read that many times that is innate in people. It's something that we must learn ourselves out of.

[add]

[quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 07:07 AM' timestamp='1260702438' post='2019614']
Countess Bathory was a Christian. She tourtured and killed over 600 people. Is she a better person than an atheist who's never harmed anyone?
[/quote]

Your statement is absurd, Christianity is based on or relating to a belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Messiah, and acceptance of his teachings, contained in the Gospels

Yes, an atheist who's never harmed anyone is a better than a tyrannical lunatic.

[Pomak]

[quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 10:08 PM' timestamp='1260702528' post='2019615']
How can it be inconsisstent with being an atheist? Atheists are humans. Humans have innate morals. It's like having eyes. One can't help it.
[/quote]
Some argue if morals are innate or are socially programed. I believe its both.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 06:07 AM' timestamp='1260702438' post='2019614']
Countess Bathory was a Christian. She tourtured and killed over 600 people. Is she a better person than an atheist who's never harmed anyone?
[/quote]

According to St. Thomas Aquinas, voluntary unbelief in God is a sin graver than murder.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='13 December 2009 - 11:19 AM' timestamp='1260721150' post='2019651']
According to St. Thomas Aquinas, voluntary unbelief in God is a sin graver than murder.
[/quote]
I doubt an atheist would find this statement to be compelling in any way. A good Roman Catholic may accept the implicit argument from authority, but most would be more interested in the rationale than the source. I beg you to elucidate the rational substratum of this position.

[little_miss_late]

[quote name='ChildoftheCreator' date='13 December 2009 - 06:27 AM' timestamp='1260703620' post='2019616']
Ok, so morals are innate? Is that essentially where morals come from and you base what you do as good or bad on whether or not it makes you have an uneasy feeling in the pit of your stomache? Is there anything that doesn't feel wrong, but you intellectually know that it is? What about racism, I have read that many times that is innate in people. It's something that we must learn ourselves out of.
[/quote]

I have no proof of anything I am about to say, it's just what I think. I think that there are some-- but only some-- morals which are innate and like a physical sense, they are differently developed in different individuals. Some people have particularly keen eyesight or hearing, and some people have a stronger inborn moral sense. I also think that like a physical sense our morals can be damaged by life-- you can be born blind, or you can lose your sight in an accident. Then I think that there are other morals which have to be explicitly taught.

I am not talking about some deterministic thing, where if you are just born right you will be a totally moral person-- this is only the potential to act morally, an awareness of morality. It would still be up to each person to act morally (and probably it would be equally difficult whether you "always knew" that something was right, or whether you had to be told).

Edited December 13, 2009 by little_miss_late