Why Atheists Make No Sense To Me...

[Laudate_Dominum]

A single Aquinas quote is enough to convince anyone of anything.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='12 December 2009 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1260638250' post='2019143']
A single Aquinas quote is enough to convince anyone of anything.
[/quote]

I never said that it was enough convince anyone, but it does show where I'm coming from.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1260638546' post='2019147']
I never said that it was enough convince anyone, but it does show where I'm coming from.
[/quote]
I wasn't responding to you, don't worry.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='12 December 2009 - 12:16 PM' timestamp='1260638212' post='2019142']
"Better person" is quite a stretch. All sin is evil. Yes, some are more grave than others but you are really pushing it by saying you're a better person even though you too are sinning.

It's that kind of logic that has let Christian's always claim the "high ground" over everyone else. "well, we're all sinners but you're a filthier sinner and I'm a better person than you so I can tell you what to do and how to act."
[/quote]

What defines a "better" or a "worse" persons (in my view) relies on one's closeness to God, for God is the highest good.

I would say that a person who is guilty of only a venial sin is closer to God than a person who is guilty of a mortal sin.

I would, therefore, conclude that the person guilty of a venial sin is a better person than the person guilty of a mortal sin.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[God the Father]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1260637911' post='2019140']
I am assuming that the two hypothetical persons commit all the same actions except the sins that you mentioned: the sin of intentionally failing to give alms on the part of the Christian, and the sin of denying the existence of God on the part of the atheist. I am also assuming that these two persons commit their respective sins knowingly and willingly.

If that is so, than the Christian is a better person, for he is committing less evil than the atheist. For, "A sin which is about the very substance of man, e.g. murder, is graver than a sin which is about external things, e.g. theft; [b]and graver still is a sin committed directly against God[/b][b], e.g. unbelief[/b], blasphemy, and the like." (St. Thomas Aquinas, [i]Summa Theologiae[/i], I-II, Q. 73, Art. 3)
[/quote]

The idea that a religious belief can elevate one person's morality over another person's is ridiculous to me and seems wildly intolerant.

Morality without God has been postulated and justified (with debatable efficiency and quality) for centuries. According to Kant, morality comes from the categorical imperative, an a priori moral commandment derived from practical reason. It's pretty out there. According to Mill, morality comes from the Greatest Happiness Principle, which is a mathematical directive which states morality is derived from aggregate pleasure and the absence of pain. Which seems a little closer to earth. Nieztsche said morality is an ancient social construct derived from etymology that got turned on its head. who knows. For whatever reason, these men are renowned and their work is taught which probably means people made sense of this at some point. Meaning God is not necessarily necessary to make certain things good and bad.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='God the Father' date='12 December 2009 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1260639957' post='2019164']
The idea that a religious belief can elevate one person's morality over another person's is ridiculous to me and seems wildly intolerant.[/quote]

I never claimed tolerance as an attribute of mine, nor do is tolerance a goal for which I strive.

[quote name='God the Father' date='12 December 2009 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1260639957' post='2019164']
Meaning God is not necessarily necessary to make certain things good and bad.
[/quote]

If you do not believe that God's laws determine what is right or wrong, then why does your religious status say "Catholic"?

[Oliver]

[quote name='XIX' date='11 December 2009 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1260490512' post='2017980']
They make their arguments for why there can not possibly be a God. Fair enough.

Then, they make a case that religion causes a great deal of harm, or that belief in God is not necessary to cause good. But here's the problem: belief in God or some sort of eternal result is absolutely necessary for there to be any such thing as good or evil. If this is it, then nothing that happens, matters, because everything will end and we will all turn out exactly the same for the next 80 quadrillion millenia of time.

The weighted average of (x*80 + y*infinity)/(80+infinity) = y, where y = nonexistence and x = however our lives go for the 80 years we have on earth. Life matters for whatever length of time we have here. And then

Atheists are supposed to be logical. I can't think of anything more cold-bloodedly logical and analytical than the above. If there is no God and no life or existence after what we have right now, then nothing matters. Nothing. Matters. Not the most horrible mostrosity or the most incredible deed.

This isn't an argument against atheism. If I was an atheist and was presented with this argument, I'd just say "Fine. Then nothing in the world carries any actual meaning."

I'm just amazed at how often atheists act like there is really good and evil in the world. It is incompatible with their (lack of) religion.

meh
[/quote]

I agree with you. Life to me without an afterlife is meaningless simply because it is far too short.

[add]

[quote]New species are still being discovered, you know.[/quote]

true, but that does not change the facts.

[quote]Here's a question for theists: if you believe that heaven is perfect and that innocent people go to heaven, why is it wrong to kill an innocent person? Surely you're doing the right thing by taking them out of this imperfect world and putting them into a perfect world?
[/quote]

it is wrong to kill an innocent person, i believe it is one of our ten [b]GREAT[/b] commandments
# 6 - Thou shalt not kill.

Edited December 12, 2009 by apparently

[LilyElain]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='10 December 2009 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1260491462' post='2017985']
I wish I was smart... I was with you until the math. Anytime X and Y gets mixed with 1 2 3 and with parentheses and pieces of pie my eyes go
[/quote]

Me too....it is the only foreign language I will never be able to learn...

[little_miss_late]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 11:26 AM' timestamp='1260635161' post='2019102']
It seems you have a flawed definition of what "good" means. A Catholic who knowingly and willingly committed the grave sin of apostasy would [i]ipso facto[/i] become a worse person than he was when he was not committing that sin (provided, of course, everything else remains about him remained the same.)
[/quote]

It's more than possible that I have a flawed definition of what "good" means, but in this case I think it was just the wrong word.

I should have said this: When I hear Christians talk about how they can't understand why atheists believe in good and evil, sometimes what I hear is that they think they would behave immorally if not for their active participation in religious life. I would like to believe that the "good" Christians I know would continue to act morally in the world if they were not Christians.

I agree with you that is very, very bad to distance yourself from a God you know exists.



[quote name='Oliver' date='12 December 2009 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1260643110' post='2019201']
I agree with you. Life to me without an afterlife is meaningless simply because it is far too short.
[/quote]

I used to not understand why Christians would care about anything that happened in life because there was an afterlife that was so much better.

[God the Father]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1260640581' post='2019172']
If you do not believe that God's laws determine what is right or wrong, then why does your religious status say "Catholic"?
[/quote]

I do believe God's laws determine what is right or wrong. I think. Maybe I'm a little confused on the matter. I think that's my right as an inquisitive being. But my main point is not that God's laws do not determine what is right or wrong, but that there are justifiable belief systems to the contrary. Much like there are justifiable religions aside from Catholicism. My religious status says catholic because I was baptized a catholic and that's what I call myself when asked. I don't claim to be a good catholic. I do go to catholic school if that counts for anything. I do believe that tolerance of other beliefs is essential for a functioning society and one of the tenets my nation was founded upon by bright people. I'm not inclined to dismiss my jewish, protestant, athiest, etc. friends as "bad" people because their versions of religious morality differ from yours.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='God the Father' date='12 December 2009 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1260646148' post='2019240']
I do believe God's laws determine what is right or wrong. I think. [/quote]

[quote]that there are justifiable belief systems to the contrary. Much like there are justifiable religions aside from Catholicism[/quote]

How do you resolve the above two quotes? You admit that God determines what is right and wrong, yet you are also saying that there are justifiable other belief systems? The problem that the second quote makes God optional or irrelevant which is conflict with the first which states that God is the arbiter.

So is God the arbiter or not? Or do you believe He created multiple belief systems with moral contradictions all leading to Him, thus showing that morals ultimately DO NOT matter?

[quote]I'm not inclined to dismiss my jewish, protestant, athiest, etc. friends as "bad" people because their versions of religious morality differ from yours.[/quote]

Bear in mind that when we speak of "our morality" we mean God's morality. So when we argue our morality versus others, we are saying that others religious morality is in conflict with God. We are not saying they are bad people. God seems to be saying it though. I mean...that's a fact.

[ChildoftheCreator]

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='12 December 2009 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1260645528' post='2019238']
I should have said this: When I hear Christians talk about how they can't understand why atheists believe in good and evil, sometimes what I hear is that they think they would behave immorally if not for their active participation in religious life. I would like to believe that the "good" Christians I know would continue to act morally in the world if they were not Christians.
[/quote]

This is interesting. I don't know that I would behave immorally, but my morals would definitely be different if I did not believe in the RC. I would definitely act on my SSA, for one thing. And I probably would gossip more. But I don't find that atheists are necessarily worse people than others. I think that sexuality is probably the biggest thing that we have differences over.

I think for me, when I say that I don't understand how atheists can believe in good and evil, is not that I'm trying to say that they are horrible people, or that they should be horrible people by my standards, it is that I truly cannot comprehend this. What is this belief based on, because I thought that atheists were without beliefs. I have thought this over again and again, but I cannot seem to comprehend it. I can accept that they follow some type of morals, but I don't see how they could justify them objectively. Is it just what they think will make the world a happier place to live in for everyone including themselves? Or is it something else?

Are morals just something to make sense of life? I have been trying to figure this out for the last year, but I cannot come to a definitive answer as to what would make a moral a moral without a God or an afterlife. Maybe I want a black and white answer to something that is grey.

[Nihil Obstat]

What I've said from the start is not that atheists have no morals, it's that I believe it is inconsistent with atheism to have morals. I fully admit that they, and probably everyone else in the world, has some inconsistent beliefs.

[Winchester]

There is no dogma unique to the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. You are Catholic. The Roman part just denotes the liturgical rite to which you belong.