HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1260738512' post='2019788'] I personally argue about what I find illogical. God does not exist but the idea of him exists, and that's what I'm arguing against.[/quote] Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense. [quote] Nothing. That's why people break the law all the time, they think they won't get caught. [/quote] Hm, that could be arguable. For example, some people break the law because they are desperate (i.e. committing theft). They understand the risk of being caught but they take that risk. In any event, would YOU break a law if you were 99% sure you would not get caught? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1260738709' post='2019792'] But not just atheists, hence nothing is proven. [/quote] Yes. Many people, Christians and non Christians, break the law all the time. The simple fact that this debate board exists and debates happen shows that we humans have the capacity to assign meaning and "rightness" to things. It kind of deals a blow, then, to the whole "objective moral order" thing. It lends support to the idea that there is, in fact, a complex process in the mind for deciding what is right and wrong without the need for an objective right. For example, why don't I kill someone if I know there is no god to punish me? Because there is a lot more to it than it being "wrong." I have emotions. I love my fellow humans, I don't want to end their lives. I have feelings about what happens when I person dies that I would never want to be responsible for. None of that requires me to believe that it's objectively wrong. I can assign it as wrong based on my own reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1260738847' post='2019795'] Would YOU break a law if you were 99% sure you would not get caught? [/quote]Depends on the benefits and possible costs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1260738128' post='2019781'] I don't get the finnish comment. If its a shot, it needs some work You gotta admit it Varg. How I live my life and what I value, is more important to me than how you live your life. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1260738847' post='2019795'] Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense. Hm, that could be arguable. For example, some people break the law because they are desperate (i.e. committing theft). They understand the risk of being caught but they take that risk. In any event, would YOU break a law if you were 99% sure you would not get caught? [/quote] No. Why? Because I understand that most people follow the law, for whatever reason. I would not want to partake in something that is unfair to people who do follow the law. An example: if i could steal anything without being caught. Most people don't steal and, in fact, pay good money for things. I would not want to unfairly acquire something knowing that someone else would have to sacrifice for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1260739022' post='2019796'] Yes. Many people, Christians and non Christians, break the law all the time. The simple fact that this debate board exists and debates happen shows that we humans have the capacity to assign meaning and "rightness" to things. It kind of deals a blow, then, to the whole "objective moral order" thing. It lends support to the idea that there is, in fact, a complex process in the mind for deciding what is right and wrong without the need for an objective right. For example, why don't I kill someone if I know there is no god to punish me? Because there is a lot more to it than it being "wrong." I have emotions. I love my fellow humans, I don't want to end their lives. I have feelings about what happens when I person dies that I would never want to be responsible for. None of that requires me to believe that it's objectively wrong. I can assign it as wrong based on my own reasoning. [/quote] If there is a subjective moral order then one person could argue that to murder is not "wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1260738128' post='2019781'] I don't get the finnish comment. If its a shot, it needs some work [/quote] Nah, it's just that "we're not so stupid as to..." seems like something a Finnish person would say. *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1260739378' post='2019802'] If there is a subjective moral order then one person could argue that to murder is not "wrong." [/quote] I didn't say they couldn't. Most murderers probably argue that the person they killed somehow deserved it. They probably argue that in a way that assumes there is an objective level of what is fair and just. They also probably don't consider the person they killed as a true "person," in that they didn't imagine what it would be like for the person being killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 04:22 PM' timestamp='1260739378' post='2019802'] If there is a subjective moral order then one person could argue that to murder is not "wrong." [/quote] People do. Hence we have war and the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1260739420' post='2019803'] Nah, it's just that "we're not so stupid as to..." seems like something a Finnish person would say. *shrug* [/quote] I was more interested in a response to the latter comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1260739550' post='2019805'] I didn't say they couldn't. Most murderers probably argue that the person they killed somehow deserved it. They probably argue that in a way that assumes there is an objective level of what is fair and just. They also probably don't consider the person they killed as a true "person," in that they didn't imagine what it would be like for the person being killed. [/quote] Definately. The majority of murderers either have enough motives to justify it to themselves or are just plain crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1260738128' post='2019781'] You gotta admit it Varg. How I live my life and what I value, is more important to me than how you live your life. [/quote] Maybe it is. The difference is I don't see it as a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1260739550' post='2019805'] I didn't say they couldn't. Most murderers probably argue that the person they killed somehow deserved it. They probably argue that in a way that assumes there is an objective level of what is fair and just. They also probably don't consider the person they killed as a true "person," in that they didn't imagine what it would be like for the person being killed. [/quote] [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1260739584' post='2019806'] People do. Hence we have war and the death penalty. [/quote] So is it safe to say that you both believe "justice" to be a product of mankind? In other words, human beings have created "justice" and therefore it is subjective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1260739584' post='2019806'] People do. Hence we have war and the death penalty. [/quote] Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1260739736' post='2019811'] So is it safe to say that you both believe "justice" to be a product of mankind? In other words, human beings have created "justice" and therefore it is subjective? [/quote] Define "justice". No one's answered this yet: [quote]Here's a question for theists: if you believe that heaven is perfect and that innocent people go to heaven, why is it wrong to kill an innocent person? Surely you're doing the right thing by taking them out of this imperfect world and putting them into a perfect world? [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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