Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1260739736' post='2019811'] So is it safe to say that you both believe "justice" to be a product of mankind? In other words, human beings have created "justice" and therefore it is subjective? [/quote] I believe justice is the complicated product of the human mind, yes. It's determined by and at the mercy of whichever mind happens to take enough interest to make decisions and consequences based on an action. The way what is just is decided upon is very subjective and varies from person to person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1260739845' post='2019815'] Define "justice". [/quote] Just the basic term in the dictionary. [quote] No one's answered this yet: [/quote] Will get to it in a sec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1260739903' post='2019816'] The way what is just is decided upon is very subjective and varies from person to person. [/quote] So then there is no such thing as injustice, if justice is relative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1260740000' post='2019819'] So then there is no such thing as injustice, if justice is relative? [/quote] Injustice is as subjective as justice is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1260739707' post='2019810'] Maybe it is. The difference is I don't see it as a bad thing. [/quote] Your lifestyle is a result of people dying for their beliefs. Lots of people defended Britian over the centuries. Were these bad decisions or do you see these people as heroic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote]Here's a question for theists: if you believe that heaven is perfect and that innocent people go to heaven, why is it wrong to kill an innocent person? Surely you're doing the right thing by taking them out of this imperfect world and putting them into a perfect world?[/quote] I'm not quite comfortable with the use of the word "innocent" in this context, because it's not innocence that gets us into Heaven but repentance. With that said though, this question is absurd on many levels. One, the act of taking a human life is inherently evil. Two, life is a gift given to us by God. We are on earth for a reason and God has a plan for us. Removing someone from this world does a disservice to God, that person, yourself, and the world (especially if that person is producing many good fruits). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1260740062' post='2019820'] Injustice is as subjective as justice is. [/quote] So when you see a news story about some injustice committed (we will say "injustice" according to American law), then you should not get upset by it because injustice is subjective and therefore there is nothing "right" or "wrong" about the act committed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1260740146' post='2019821'] Your lifestyle is a result of people dying for their beliefs. Lots of people defended Britian over the centuries. Were these bad decisions or do you see these people as heroic? [/quote] They died for someting worth protecting, I have no doubt that Britain exists. The fact that my ancestry is part Viking, part Celtic and part Odin knows what else goes to show that the people defending this country over the centuries did a pretty lousy job of it, anyway... Edited December 13, 2009 by Varg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1260740699' post='2019828'] I'm not quite comfortable with the use of the word "innocent" in this context, because it's not innocence that gets us into Heaven but repentance. With that said though, this question is absurd on many levels. One, the act of taking a human life is inherently evil. Two, life is a gift given to us by God. We are on earth for a reason and God has a plan for us. Removing someone from this world does a disservice to God, that person, yourself, and the world (especially if that person is producing many good fruits). [/quote] But what if they're a useless, unemployed waste of space and they're suffering but they're innocent. Would it be the right thing to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1260740838' post='2019830'] They died for someting worth protecting, I have no doubt that Britain exists. The fact that my ancestry is part Viking, part Celtic and part Odin knows what else goes to show that the people defending this country over the centuries did a pretty lousy job of it, anyway... [/quote] So what you're saying is your beliefs aren't worth protecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1260741201' post='2019832'] So what you're saying is your beliefs aren't worth protecting. [/quote] Maybe if your God had made us better we wouldn't feel the need to fight and crush each other's beliefs. Edited December 13, 2009 by Varg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1260740814' post='2019829'] So when you see a news story about some injustice committed (we will say "injustice" according to American law), then you should not get upset by it because injustice is subjective and therefore there is nothing "right" or "wrong" about the act committed? [/quote] When you conveniently overlook everything I said about emotions and feelings and how they relate to right and wrong, then that would make sense. However, as I pointed out, we have the capacity to assign rightness or wrongness based on our own inner workings. I can be upset by an "injustice" just like I can disagree that something is unjust. It's the reason why we have courts to decide, the reason why the jury isn't always of a single opinion, the reason why we have a bill of rights that had to be ratified. There isn't always agreement about what is just and what isn't. If there is this so called objective "justice," it should be innate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1260741104' post='2019831'] But what if they're a useless, unemployed waste of space and they're suffering but they're innocent. Would it be the right thing to do? [/quote] No one is a useless, unemployed waste of space. We are all human beings, and as such we are all deserving of dignity - even the worst of sinners. As I mentioned, God has a plan for each and every one of us. Whether or not we accept His plan is not the issue. We have the capacity to accept it, however, and to do it. Every single human being has the ability to do God's will, all the time - even the people you deem as "useless, unemployed waste[s] of space". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1260741245' post='2019833'] Maybe if your God had made us better we wouldn't feel the need to fight and crush each other's beliefs. [/quote] What do you mean by "had made us better"? Do you mean "had made us without free will"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1260741286' post='2019834'] When you conveniently overlook everything I said about emotions and feelings and how they relate to right and wrong, then that would make sense. However, as I pointed out, we have the capacity to assign rightness or wrongness based on our own inner workings. I can be upset by an "injustice" just like I can disagree that something is unjust. It's the reason why we have courts to decide, the reason why the jury isn't always of a single opinion, the reason why we have a bill of rights that had to be ratified. There isn't always agreement about what is just and what isn't. If there is this so called objective "justice," it should be innate. [/quote] Where does this innateness come from? Is it biological? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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