Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1260741499' post='2019839'] Where does this innateness come from? Is it biological? [/quote] That was my point. There is no innate justice. There are innate things in our biology that allow us to draw conclusions about justice — the survival instinct, our capacity to feel and relate to other humans. But there is no innate justice in that everyone agrees upon what is just and what it unjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1260741245' post='2019833'] Maybe if your God had made us better we wouldn't feel the need to fight and crush each other's beliefs. [/quote] That is evasive. According to what you've written. Only beliefs worth protecting are worth dying for. Since you are not ready to die for atheism, according to your beliefs, atheism isn't worth protecting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1260741620' post='2019841'] That is evasive. According to what you've written. Only beliefs worth protecting are worth dying for. Since you are not ready to die for atheism, according to your beliefs, atheism isn't worth protecting? [/quote] We have nothing to lose if we lose atheism, other than our freedom to disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 05:02 PM' timestamp='1260741735' post='2019842'] We have nothing to lose if we lose atheism, [/quote] Which is the fatal flaw of atheism. If you have nothing to lose, then that's what it is... nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1260741619' post='2019840'] our capacity to feel and relate to other humans. [/quote] Is this biological, or learned - if not spiritual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1260741832' post='2019843'] Which is the fatal flaw of atheism [/quote] No, it's your fatal flaw. You believe it's some kind of structured belief system like yours. It's not. It's a label for something that has no uniformity. It's the lack of belief in god, that's it. There isn't anything to protect and there isn't anything to lose. It's not a religion. People may be very adamant, but it's about their ideas, not the "system" of atheism. It's the ideas that are important. But they aren't so important that they should be placed higher than life itself. Unlike your belief system, I will be just fine if something in mine is shown to be false. I'd rather go on with my life than die over my ideas. In yours, your whole world would crumble if it's shown to be false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1260741920' post='2019845'] Is this biological, or learned - if not spiritual? [/quote] The capacity comes from the nature of our brain structure. The expression is learned and fine tuned throughout life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1260741448' post='2019837'] What do you mean by "had made us better"? Do you mean "had made us without free will"? [/quote] Nope. Just a bit more empathy, tolerance, less greed, and increased ability to learn from our mistakes would be nice. Edited December 13, 2009 by Varg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1260741987' post='2019846'] No, it's your fatal flaw. You believe it's some kind of structured belief system like yours. It's not. It's a label for something that has no uniformity. It's the lack of belief in god, that's it. There isn't anything to protect and there isn't anything to lose. It's not a religion. People may be very adamant, but it's about their ideas, not the "system" of atheism. It's the ideas that are important. But they aren't so important that they should be placed higher than life itself. Unlike your belief system, I will be just fine if something in mine is shown to be false. I'd rather go on with my life than die over my ideas. In yours, your whole world would crumble if it's shown to be false. [/quote] to the contrary. I know exactly what atheism is. You define yourself by what you don't believe. that is why no one is willing to die for it. That is why it will always fail in the end. Because when someone defines themselves by what they don't believe, they have defined nothing. The true measure of a person is to live out what they believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1260742309' post='2019852'] The true measure of a person is to live out what they believe. [/quote]According to whom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1260742309' post='2019852'] to the contrary. I know exactly what atheism is. You define yourself by what you don't believe. that is why no one is willing to die for it. That is why it will always fail in the end. Because when someone defines themselves by what they don't believe, they have defined nothing. The true measure of a person is to live out what they believe. [/quote] The difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is that with atheists, they don't care. I don't have an agenda. Let what may, be. There isn't anything to "fail." I am not defined by what I don't believe, I am defined by my ideas and the beliefs I have as a result. However, I am not willing to die from them because there is nothing to gain by dying. In Christianity, there is something to gain, your reward of heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1260742438' post='2019853'] According to whom? [/quote] everyone. Every person you've ever studied in school Every person you've been tested on Lived out what they believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='13 December 2009 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1260742557' post='2019856'] everyone. Every person you've ever studied in school Every person you've been tested on Lived out what they believe [/quote] I live according to what I believe. I don't see why not dying for it means I didn't live it. Not everyone who lived what they believed also died for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1260741987' post='2019846'] It's the ideas that are important.[/quote] Important to who? They can only be important to the individual, or as important as they individual wants to make them. Otherwise, they are simply relative. [quote] Unlike your belief system, I will be just fine if something in mine is shown to be false. [/quote] Would you not just take that falsehood and claim it's relative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1260742699' post='2019861'] Important to who? They can only be important to the individual, or as important as they individual wants to make them. Otherwise, they are simply relative. Would you not just take that falsehood and claim it's relative? [/quote] Not everything is relative. Logic is based on what exists. The world exists, the function of nature exists. Their processes aren't relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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