Pope St. Gregory On The Muslims

[Resurrexi]

From Letter XXI of Pope St. Gregory VII (†1085) to the (Muslim) King of Mauritania:

"[F]or Almighty God, Who desires that all men shall be saved and that none shall perish, approves nothing more highly in us than this: that a man love his fellow man next to his God and do nothing to him which he would not that others should do to himself.

"This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, 'He is our peace who hath made both one.'

"This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities.

[. . .]

"For God knows our true regard for you to his glory and how truly we desire your prosperity and honor, both in this life and in the life to come, and how earnestly we pray both with our lips and with our heart that God Himself, after the long journey of this life, may lead you into the bosom of the most holy patriarch Abraham.'

Edited December 11, 2009 by Resurrexi

[HisChildForever]

This is a very beautiful post, Rex. We need to pray for the salvation of their souls, that they may come to know Christ as Lord God and Savior of mankind.

[Resurrexi]

For any who would like the original Latin:

"Nam omnipotens Deus, qui omnes homines vult salvos facere, et neminem perire (I Tim. II), nihil est quod in nobis magis approbet quam ut homo post dilectionem suam hominem diligat, et quod sibi non vult fieri, alii non faciat (Matth. VII).

"Hanc itaque charitatem nos et vos specialibus nobis quam caeteris gentibus debemus, qui unum Deum, licet diverso modo, credimus et confitemur, qui eum Creatorem saeculorum et gubernatorem hujus mundi quotidie laudamus et veneramur. Nam sicut Apostolus dicit: Ipse
est pax nostra qui fecit utraque unum (Ephes. II).

[. . .]

"Sed hanc tibi gratiam a Deo concessam plures nobilium Romanorum per nos cognoscentes, bonitatem et virtutes tuas omnino admirantur et praedicant. Nam sicut Apostolus dicit: Ipse est pax nostra qui fecit utraque unum (Ephes. II).

"Scit enim Deus quia pure ad honorem Dei te diligimus, et salutem et honorem tuum in praesenti et in futura vita desideramus. Atque ut ipse Deus in sinum beatitudinis sanctissimi patriarchae Abrahae post longa hujus vitae spatia te perducat corde et ore rogamus."

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 December 2009 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1260503339' post='2018114']
This is a very beautiful post, Rex. We need to pray for the salvation of their souls, that they may come to know Christ as Lord God and Savior of mankind.
[/quote]

I don't know that that was the point. I think the Pope was more rejoicing in our shared faith in one God, our shared Father in faith (Abraham), and the mutual love we owe to each others since we are brothers in this way (i.e. prayers for the well-being of the other as brother).

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='10 December 2009 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1260502422' post='2018105']

"This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, 'He is our peace who hath made both one.'

...

"For God knows our true regard for you to his glory and how truly we desire your prosperity and honor, both in this life and in the life to come, and how earnestly we pray both with our lips and with our heart that God Himself, after the long journey of this life, may lead you into the bosom of the most holy patriarch Abraham.' (St. Gregory VII, letter XXI to Anzir, King of Mauritania)
[/quote]

Edited December 11, 2009 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 December 2009 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1260503339' post='2018114']
We need to pray for the salvation of their souls, that they may come to know Christ as Lord God and Savior of mankind.
[/quote]

Amen, HCF!

[OraProMe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 December 2009 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1260503339' post='2018114']
This is a very beautiful post, Rex. We need to pray for the salvation of their souls, that they may come to know Christ as Lord God and Savior of mankind.
[/quote]

Please take note of the way the Pope delivers his message

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='10 December 2009 - 10:33 PM' timestamp='1260502422' post='2018105']
"[F]or Almighty God, Who desires that all men shall be saved and that none shall perish, approves nothing more highly in us than this: that a man love his fellow man next to his God and do nothing to him which he would not that others should do to himself.

"This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, 'He is our peace who hath made both one.'

"This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities.

[. . .]

"For God knows our true regard for you to his glory and how truly we desire your prosperity and honor, both in this life and in the life to come, and how earnestly we pray both with our lips and with our heart that God Himself, after the long journey of this life, may lead you into the bosom of the most holy patriarch Abraham.' (St. Gregory VII, letter XXI to Anzir, King of Mauritania)
[/quote]


Wow, I adopt and use these words as mine own to welcome our muslim brothers and sisters to phatmass.

[Pomak]

1085, very interesting time.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='10 December 2009 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1260502422' post='2018105']
From Letter XXI of Pope St. Gregory VII (†1085) to the (Muslim) King of Mauritania:
[/quote]
Beautiful sentiments, but a papal diplomatic letter to the King of Mauritania has no dogmatic value.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Apotheoun

[JimR-OCDS]

Its evident in what St. Gregory wrote, to see why he in fact became a saint.

He obviously had a spiritual union with Christ, which is clearly seen in his words.


Jim

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 December 2009 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1260551729' post='2018442']
Beautiful sentiments, but a papal diplomatic letter to the King of Mauritania has no dogmatic value.
[/quote]

I never claimed that it did have any dogmatic value. That said, it is a statement from a Saint, a statement that was referenced in a decree of an ecumenical council of the universal Church.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 December 2009 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1260558802' post='2018533']
I never claimed that it did. That said, it is a statement from a Saint, a statement that was referenced in a decree of an ccumenical council of the universal Church.
[/quote]
You mean a non-dogmatic council of the Western Church.

You should read St. John Damascene's "Dialogue between a Saracen and a Christian" because it is far more informative, and it was written by a saint who lived under Muslim overlords.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 December 2009 - 02:15 PM' timestamp='1260558901' post='2018536']
You mean a non-dogmatic council of the Western Church.

You should read St. John Damascene's "Dialogue between a Saracen and a Christian" because it is far more informative, and it was written by a saint who lived under Muslim overlords.
[/quote]

I was aware that St. John Damascene wrote extensively on Islam and lived in the Islamic caliphate. That is why I chose "Ioannes Damascenus" as my username at the Muslim forum. But that does not mean that I have nothing to learn from what other saints, such as Gregory VII, wrote.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 December 2009 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1260559042' post='2018539']
I was aware that St. John Damascene wrote extensively on Islam and lived in the Islamic caliphate. That is why I chose "Ioannes Damascenus" as my username at the Muslim forum. But that does not mean that I have nothing to learn from what other saints, such as Gregory VII, wrote.
[/quote]
Where in my post did I say that you have nothing to learn from the writings of other saints?

I simply pointed out that St. John Damascene had first hand knowledge of Islam - living as he did in the Muslim world; while Pope St. Gregory VII did not.

[KnightofChrist]

From what I recall during the Pontificate of Gregory VII the Koran had not even been translated to Latin or any Western language, nor had the Creed Apo posted in another thread. So he had no hard evidence on which to base his statements only generalities and claims.

[Apotheoun]

From what I recall during the Pontificate of Gregory VII the Koran had not even been translated to Latin or any Western language, nor had the Creed Apo posted in another thread. So he had no hard evidence on which to base his statements only generalities and claims.

Yeah. Besides, the letter was not meant to be a dogmatic treatise, but was simply part of the pope's diplomatic correspondence.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='11 December 2009 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1260559861' post='2018547']
From what I recall during the Pontificate of Gregory VII the Koran had not even been translated to Latin or any Western language, nor had the Creed Apo posted in another thread. So he had no hard evidence on which to base his statements only generalities and claims.
[/quote]


You're presuming that Pope Gregory couldn't read Arabic or that he had no people who could translate
for him?


Jim

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='11 December 2009 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1260564675' post='2018606']
You're presuming that Pope Gregory couldn't read Arabic or that he had no people who could translate
for him?


Jim
[/quote]

There is no evidence that he did read Arabic, and as I've already stated NO the Koran was not translated by anyone in the west until much later. Also note translations took years to complete. Your question is an presumption based on no evidence what so ever.

[Pomak]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 December 2009 - 07:56 AM' timestamp='1260564990' post='2018611']
There is no evidence that he did read Arabic, and as I've already stated NO the Koran was not translated by anyone in the west until much later. Also note translations took years to complete. Your question is an presumption based on no evidence what so ever.
[/quote]

When did Sicily fall? Most likely there was a bunch of stuff there that was translated.

PS. I found it rather interesting that this was sourced to 10 years before the first crusade was launched.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='11 December 2009 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1260564675' post='2018606']
You're presuming that Pope Gregory couldn't read Arabic or that he had no people who could translate
for him?


Jim
[/quote]

Knight is right. It would have been every unlikely for him (or any other Medieval Western European) to have been able to read Arabic.


[quote name='Pomak' date='12 December 2009 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1260595464' post='2018884']
PS. I found it rather interesting that this was sourced to 10 years before the first crusade was launched.
[/quote]

I'm very interested in the Crusades.