Pope St. Gregory On The Muslims

[Didacus]

[quote name='Pomak' date='11 December 2009 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1260545636' post='2018381']
1085, very interesting time.
[/quote]

It was a good year for wine if I remember right...

[JimR-OCDS]

Resurrexi

[quote]
Knight is right. It would have been every unlikely for him (or any other Medieval Western European) to have been able to read Arabic.
[/quote]

What about Arab Christians from Palestine? Do you think the Pope might've had Christians from the Holy Land to translate for him, who knew Arabic and perhaps may have even been converts from Islam?

How do you suppose King Richard the Lion Hearted, communicated with the Sultan?


Jim

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1260806114' post='2020247']
Resurrexi



What about Arab Christians from Palestine? Do you think the Pope might've had Christians from the Holy Land to translate for him, who knew Arabic and perhaps may have even been converts from Islam?

How do you suppose King Richard the Lion Hearted, communicated with the Sultan?


Jim
[/quote]
There is no historical evidence that shows that Pope Gregory VII ever had access to or read the Quran in a language that he understood. The burden of proof is upon you to show that he read it.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1260806555' post='2020251']
There is no historical evidence that shows that Pope Gregory VII ever had access to or read the Quran in a language that he understood. The burden of proof is upon you to show that he read it.
[/quote]


I beleive the burden of proof is on you to show that he didn't have access to the Quran.

I don't know if he did or didn't, but by guess is, that he did.

Jim

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 09:29 AM' timestamp='1260808156' post='2020264']
I beleive the burden of proof is on you to show that he didn't have access to the Quran.

I don't know if he did or didn't, but by guess is, that he did.

Jim
[/quote]
No, I cannot prove a negative. If you believe that he read the Quran . . . prove it.

Guessing is not evidence.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1260806114' post='2020247']
Resurrexi



What about Arab Christians from Palestine? Do you think the Pope might've had Christians from the Holy Land to translate for him, who knew Arabic and perhaps may have even been converts from Islam?

How do you suppose King Richard the Lion Hearted, communicated with the Sultan?


Jim
[/quote]

Jim, I don't care if St. Gregory VII was able to read Arabic, to be honest. As I stated before, it isn't very likely that he could. And as Apo stated below, the burden of proof is on you.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1260808530' post='2020269']
No, I cannot prove a negative. If you believe that he read the Quran . . . prove it.

Guessing is not evidence.
[/quote]


Ah, but I'm not the one who made a definitive statement, i.e. Pope Gregory could not read Arabic nor did he have translators who could.

I merely stated that it is my "GUESS" that he may have had translators who could. I don't know for sure one way or another, but logic leads me to believe in the possibility that he was able to learn about the Koran, through translators or perhaps he did know some Arabic.

After all, Islam had only been repelled from the city of Paris, 100 years before, and was still a growing new religion. It would make sense to me, he, like Pope's who preceded him, would've learned something about it.



Jim

[KnightofChrist]

Fact: The first translation of the Koran into a Western language, which was Latin was in 1143. Pope St. Gregory VII made his statement in 1085.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 December 2009 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1260825160' post='2020550']
Fact: The first translation of the Koran into a Western language, which was Latin was in 1143. Pope St. Gregory VII made his statement in 1085.
[/quote]


But this doesn't prove that he didn't have the Koran read to him by some one who could read Arabic.

It also doesn't prove he didn't have a knowledge of Arabic.

Also, that would be the first published translation of the Koran. For all we know, pieces or all of it were being translated for the Pope exclusively before 1143.

Pope's know a lot about other religions. Pope Benedict XVI knows Hinduism and Taoism pretty well, from what I've seen in his writings.

Jim

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1260826126' post='2020572']
But this doesn't prove that he didn't have the Koran read to him by some one who could read Arabic.

It also doesn't prove he didn't have a knowledge of Arabic.

Also, that would be the first published translation of the Koran. For all we know, pieces or all of it were being translated for the Pope exclusively before 1143.

Pope's know a lot about other religions. Pope Benedict XVI knows Hinduism and Taoism pretty well, from what I've seen in his writings.

Jim
[/quote]

YOU HAVE NO PROOF. End of story.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='12 December 2009 - 04:15 AM' timestamp='1260551729' post='2018442']
Beautiful sentiments, but a papal diplomatic letter to the King of Mauritania has no dogmatic value.
[/quote]

It has sentiment and food for the soul, which is more important than dogmatic value!

[Pomak]

I would contend that he didn't, and it really doesn't matter. There is a long list of statements made by Christian leaders until about the 18th century which show a basic misunderstanding of Islam and its doctrines and beliefs. But having said that, the one possible way this pope might of been able to find a latin copy of the quran would of been via the Sicily conquest(the 1st christian ruler was a major fan of arab/north africa culture)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam_in_southern_Italy#Decline_.281037.E2.80.931061.29_and_Norman_conquest_of_Muslim_Sicily_.281061.E2.80.931091.29

It was about the same time so its not totally implausible. But I'd put it more to the particular pope's personality/character then any knowledge of arabic. Pitty it didn't carry over after his death.

[Winchester]

Anything apart from the rejection of Christ is rather unimportant.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='14 December 2009 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1260829348' post='2020623']
It has sentiment and food for the soul, which is more important than dogmatic value!
[/quote]
We will have to agree to disagree. The dogmas of Orthodoxy bring salvation.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 December 2009 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1260826989' post='2020585']
YOU HAVE NO PROOF. End of story.
[/quote]

Nor did I state it was a fact, but my guess.

Jim

Edited December 15, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[Winchester]

It's a liberal thing, don't sweat it. Feelings have gotten us wonderful things like progressive(ly difficult) taxation. And handouts, which have elevated the poor out of their problems. Now they live in squalor and filth and lawlessness, but they have cable!

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Winchester' date='15 December 2009 - 10:07 AM' timestamp='1260889675' post='2020920']
It's a liberal thing, don't sweat it. Feelings have gotten us wonderful things like progressive(ly difficult) taxation. And handouts, which have elevated the poor out of their problems. Now they live in squalor and filth and lawlessness, but they have cable!
[/quote]


Cable TV - The most effective welfare program.