The Novus Ordo Missae

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='14 December 2009 - 05:21 PM' timestamp='1260829304' post='2020622']
So hang on now...

The people who take their faith more seriously tend to be drawn towards the Extraordinary Form, yet the Ordinary Form is still better for Catholicism?

To use hyperbolic language (and please note that this is only for convenience, and does not imply value judgements), isn't it reasonable that the "best" go to the "best", while the "average" go to the "average"?
[/quote]

Action failed: You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[Crispy]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='13 December 2009 - 12:33 AM' timestamp='1260678802' post='2019523']
Indeed. I think this would be the hardest part of allowing vernacular too. ...I'm also including the Divine Office in this discussion. Is that a fair addition?
[/quote]

I have to say that, despite my desire to preserve Latin in the liturgy in some way that is prudent and beneficial, I would be very unhappy if the Liturgy of the Hours was made to be exclusively in Latin. I'm sure some people catch on to Latin well, but I had a hard time learning it in college, and not much to show for it now (a short year later). If the entire breviary was only in Latin, that might be an impediment to my (hopeful) ordination to the priesthood. Short Latin prayers in the Mass, great, awesome. But 30-60 minutes daily of mandatory prayer only in Latin (lauds, vespers, office of readings, etc) would make "sanctifying the day" into a boring chore, since I am not fluent in the language.

[Socrates]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1260826613' post='2020579']
Socrates



When you attend the TLM in today's world, you're attending the extraordinary format, and those who attend, generally go out of their way to attend. They are not your normal Catholic attending Mass at their parish. People who go out of their way to enrich themselves spiritually, have a totally different attitude towards Mass than the general public.

The TLM closest to me is about a 20 minute drive, and its at 8AM. According to the Catholic Free Press, people attending Mass there, are driving as far away as 60 miles. Remember, this is an 8 AM Mass.

Like I said before, I attend a Catholic retreat at a monastery every year. The people who attend Mass there are not your average Catholics. They take their faith more serious than the average Catholic in today's Catholic parishes. The Mass as well as the Liturgy of the Hours, is the most reverent I've ever attended, and its all in English, even the chant which the monks sing.[/quote]
This contradicts your earlier claim that the TLM is just attended by "conformists" rather than "faith-filled people."

[quote]However, make the TLM the norm where its the only format said in the parishes, and it would be a disaster, especially today where there isn't much tolerance for things that are difficult to understand.

Jim[/quote]
Yes, we can see how dumbing everything down has worked wonders.

If Catholics have really "spiritually evolved" so much over the past, this shouldn't be an issue.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Socrates

[Laudate_Dominum]

Hey, cool, you can click and see who voted for what.

SMM, what the heck are you doing voting No!???


Now I challenge you to a duel!

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1260838537' post='2020728']
Hey, cool, you can click and see who voted for what.

SMM, what the heck are you doing voting No!???


Now I challenge you to a duel!
[/quote]

But under the 1917 Code, those who participate in duels are excommunicated latae sententiae.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 December 2009 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1260838620' post='2020729']
But under the 1917 Code, those who participate in duels are excommunicated latae sententiae.




[/quote]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Crispy' date='14 December 2009 - 05:59 PM' timestamp='1260831544' post='2020654']
I have to say that, despite my desire to preserve Latin in the liturgy in some way that is prudent and beneficial, I would be very unhappy if the Liturgy of the Hours was made to be exclusively in Latin. I'm sure some people catch on to Latin well, but I had a hard time learning it in college, and not much to show for it now (a short year later). If the entire breviary was only in Latin, that might be an impediment to my (hopeful) ordination to the priesthood. Short Latin prayers in the Mass, great, awesome. But 30-60 minutes daily of mandatory prayer only in Latin (lauds, vespers, office of readings, etc) would make "sanctifying the day" into a boring chore, since I am not fluent in the language.
[/quote]
You know, some saints would find the boring chore the best way to holiness

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1260838537' post='2020728']
Hey, cool, you can click and see who voted for what.

SMM, what the heck are you doing voting No!???


Now I challenge you to a duel!
[/quote]
Lightsabres or the regular kind?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Socrates' date='14 December 2009 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1260825560' post='2020558']
Actually, having attended TLM in several different churches in different states, I must beg to differ.
In every TLM I've been to, people did in fact show up for Mass well dressed and reverent. Considerably more so than in many "Novus Ordo" masses. While I don't deny that they could occur, I have not seen any form of liturgical abuse or irreverence at a Traditional Latin Mass. Both the priests and congregations have been reverent and respectful.

I'm not a "rad trad," I don't consider NO masses invalid, I've seen some very beautiful and reverent NO masses, and I'm not so naive as to think that simply returning universally to TLM will automatically solve all the problems in the Church today.
However, your charge that if we had the TLM, "it would be worse than ever," is blatant nonsense. The TLM never completely went away; in fact the Pope has given the universal indult. And where the TLM is said things are not "worse than ever," but the liturgy and demeanor of priest and congregation are reverent.

I see the problem as being not so much the NO mass, as the common abuses of it. I think a return to reverence and proper form, whether in the TLM or a properly-said NO mass, will in fact have an all-around positive effect on the Church, and our Holy Father realizes this.
[/quote]

I agree with everything here.

[OraProMe]

I think some people are confusing what Jim is saying. For example, Socrates, when he said that "conformists" attended the Latin Mass he was talking pre-Paul VI. When he said that "faith-filled" people attend the TLM he was talking 2009, when anyone willing to wake up at 6am to get to Mass obviously takes their faith far more seriously than many other Catholics. Please note that I prefer the Latin Mass and attended it for the vast majority of the time I was a practicing Catholic, but I have to agree with Jim that forcing it on people would cause a lot of problems.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='15 December 2009 - 05:15 AM' timestamp='1260868557' post='2020872']
I think some people are confusing what Jim is saying. For example, Socrates, when he said that "conformists" attended the Latin Mass he was talking pre-Paul VI. When he said that "faith-filled" people attend the TLM he was talking 2009, when anyone willing to wake up at 6am to get to Mass obviously takes their faith far more seriously than many other Catholics. Please note that I prefer the Latin Mass and attended it for the vast majority of the time I was a practicing Catholic, but I have to agree with Jim that forcing it on people would cause a lot of problems.
[/quote]


Exactly what I've been saying.

Thank You

Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Socrates' date='14 December 2009 - 08:51 PM' timestamp='1260838298' post='2020726']
This contradicts your earlier claim that the TLM is just attended by "conformists" rather than "faith-filled people."


Yes, we can see how dumbing everything down has worked wonders.

If Catholics have really "spiritually evolved" so much over the past, this shouldn't be an issue.
[/quote]


Making the Mass understandable by allowing it in the language of the people, isn't dumbing it down, but instead, bringing people into fuller participation, which is exactly what Vatican II document on the Sacred Liturgy states.

As Father Michael G. Ryan stated in his article "What If We Said, 'Wait'?" on the changes to the liturgy stated;

[quote]
The council that gave to conferences of bishops the authority to produce their own translations ([i]S.C.[/i], Nos. 36, 40), to be approved, it is true, by the Holy See but not, presumably, to be initiated, nitpicked and controlled by it. Further, the council also wisely made provision for times of experimentation and evaluation ([i]S.C.[/i], No. 40)
[/quote]




If we look at the humble saints such as St Bernadette, who had little understanding of the Catholic Mass because she could barely understand French, never mind Latin. Do you think she would've loved the Mass in her own vernacular? FYI, French wasn't her vernacular.

Same is true for others.

If allowing the Mass in the vernacular is a dumbing down, then so is translating Scripture or any other text into the vernacular, a dumbing down process. We're all just too stupid to read the text in its original language, so why dumb it down. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img]


Jim

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='15 December 2009 - 10:21 AM' timestamp='1260890476' post='2020925']
Making the Mass understandable by allowing it in the language of the people, isn't dumbing it down, but instead, bringing people into fuller participation, which is exactly what Vatican II document on the Sacred Liturgy states.

As Father Michael G. Ryan stated in his article "What If We Said, 'Wait'?" on the changes to the liturgy stated;






If we look at the humble saints such as St Bernadette, who had little understanding of the Catholic Mass because she could barely understand French, never mind Latin. Do you think she would've loved the Mass in her own vernacular? FYI, French wasn't her vernacular.

Same is true for others.

If allowing the Mass in the vernacular is a dumbing down, then so is translating Scripture or any other text into the vernacular, a dumbing down process. We're all just too stupid to read the text in its original language, so why dumb it down. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img]


Jim
[/quote]

Action failed: You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='15 December 2009 - 10:21 AM' timestamp='1260890476' post='2020925']
As Father Michael G. Ryan stated in his article "What If We Said, 'Wait'?" on the changes to the liturgy stated;
[/quote]

You're referring to THAT article?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 December 2009 - 03:24 PM' timestamp='1260912291' post='2021196']
You're referring to THAT article?
[/quote]
I am intrigued and amused by your scorn.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 December 2009 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1260912291' post='2021196']
You're referring to THAT article? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_pound.gif[/img]
[/quote]


And the point of the article I presented is flawed in what way, according to your superior knowledge? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]


Jim

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 December 2009 - 02:40 PM' timestamp='1260913203' post='2021218']
I am intrigued and amused by your scorn.
[/quote]
[url="http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=12045"]"What If We Said, 'Wait'?"[/url]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='15 December 2009 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1260913240' post='2021221']
And the point of the article I presented is flawed in what way, according to your superior knowledge? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]


Jim
[/quote]

It advocates keeping a translation that would have gotten an F if being graded by a high school Latin teacher.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 December 2009 - 05:42 PM' timestamp='1260913360' post='2021224']
It advocates keeping a translation that would have gotten an F if being graded by a high school Latin teacher.
[/quote]


The point of the article I presented was that as Fr Ryan points out the parts of Sacrosanctum Concilium which he referenced, is that it gave the Bishops the authority to produce the translations for their conferences, and to allow time of experimentation to see what would work best.

Obviously, you merely blew it of because of who wrote it, not for its content.

Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='15 December 2009 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1260913855' post='2021240']
The point of the article I presented was that as Fr Ryan points out the parts of Sacrosanctum Concilium which he referenced, is that it gave the Bishops the authority to produce the translations for their conferences, and to allow time of experimentation to see what would work best.

Obviously, you merely blew it of because of who wrote it, not for its content.

Jim
[/quote]
I got through the first three paragraphs. It's a load of garbage.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='15 December 2009 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1260913855' post='2021240']
The point of the article I presented was that as Fr Ryan points out the parts of Sacrosanctum Concilium which he referenced, is that it gave the Bishops the authority to produce the translations for their conferences, and to allow time of experimentation to see what would work best.

Obviously, you merely blew it of because of who wrote it, not for its content.

Jim
[/quote]

Ecclesiology fail.

"In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power." (Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Lumen Gentium, 22)

That means he can take the authority to produce translation away from the bishops and give it to a Roman Congregation if he feels like it.