What Divides Muslims And Christians

[mortify]

Most would say it's the Trinity, I would say it's the fact that Christ was crucified:

[img]http://www.eportfolio.lagcc.cuny.edu/ePortfolios/Intermediate/Juan_PerezREV/IMAGES/Velazquez.jpg[/img]


The entire Christian religion centers around the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, while the Qur'an explicitly rejects that it ever happened:
[color="#8B0000"]
[i][b]"That they [color="#FF0000"](=the Jews)[/color] said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but [u]they killed him not, nor crucified him[/u], but so it was [u]made to appear[/u] to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for [u]of a surety they killed him not[/u]: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise[/b][/i][/color]
Quran Surah An-Nissa (4) aya 157-158


Any serious discussion between Christians and Muslims must begin with this event, for if it didn't happen our Christian faith is in vain, and if it did the Qur'an is in error.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='mortify' date='12 December 2009 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1260660468' post='2019372']
Most would say it's the Trinity, I would say it's the fact that Christ was crucified:

[img]http://www.eportfolio.lagcc.cuny.edu/ePortfolios/Intermediate/Juan_PerezREV/IMAGES/Velazquez.jpg[/img]

[/quote]

I love that image of the Crucifixion. Velazquez is one of my favorite artists.

[Jaime]

That's interesting Mortify!

I didn't know that muslims didn't believe that Christ was crucified.

[mortify]

Ibn Kathir, famous for his commentary on the Qur'an, had this to write about the above said verse revealing Jesus was not crucified. It serves as an Islamic alternative to what's presented in the Gospels:

==Quote==

[color="#8B0000"]When Allah sent `Isa with proofs and guidance, the Jews, may Allah's curses, anger, torment and punishment be upon them, envied him because of his prophethood and obvious miracles; curing the blind and leprous and bringing the dead back to life, by Allah's leave. He also used to make the shape of a bird from clay and blow in it, and it became a bird by Allah's leave and flew. `Isa performed other miracles that Allah honored him with, yet the Jews defied and bellied him and tried their best to harm him. Allah's Prophet `Isa could not live in any one city for long and he had to travel often with his mother, peace be upon them. Even so, the Jews were not satisfied, and they went to the king of Damascus at that time, a Greek polytheist who worshipped the stars. They told him that there was a man in Bayt Al-Maqdis misguiding and dividing the people in Jerusalem and stirring unrest among the king's subjects. The king became angry and wrote to his deputy in Jerusalem to arrest the rebel leader, stop him from causing unrest, crucify him and make him wear a crown of thorns. When the king's deputy in Jerusalem received these orders, he went with some Jews to the house that `Isa was residing in, and he was then with twelve, thirteen or seventeen of his companions. That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded `Isa in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, "Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise'' A young man volunteered, but `Isa thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting `Isa to say, "Well then, you will be that man.'' Allah made the young man look exactly like `Isa, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and `Isa was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep.

When `Isa ascended, those who were in the house came out. When those surrounding the house saw the man who looked like `Isa, they thought that he was `Isa. So they took him at night, crucified him and placed a crown of thorns on his head. The Jews then boasted that they killed `Isa and some Christians accepted their false claim, due to their ignorance and lack of reason. As for those who were in the house with `Isa, they witnessed his ascension to heaven, while the rest thought that the Jews killed `Isa by crucifixion. They even said that Maryam sat under the corpse of the crucified man and cried, and they say that the dead man spoke to her. All this was a test from Allah for His servants out of His wisdom. Allah explained this matter in the Glorious Qur'an which He sent to His honorable Messenger, whom He supported with miracles and clear, unequivocal evidence. Allah is the Most Truthful, and He is the Lord of the worlds Who knows the secrets, what the hearts conceal, the hidden matters in heaven and earth, what has occurred, what will occur, and what would occur if it was decreed.[/color]

==End Quote==

Taken from: [url="http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12730"]Tafsir Ibn Kathir[/url]

[Selah]

If I am not mistaken (I may be) they believe another person died in His place by taking on His form or countanence.

[mortify]

[quote name='Selah' date='12 December 2009 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1260660729' post='2019376']
If I am not mistaken (I may be) they believe another person died in His place by taking on His form or countanence.
[/quote]

Yes Selah, see the above quote from Ibn Kathir.

[mortify]

The image of our Lord crucified will probably discourage Muslims from posting

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='mortify' date='12 December 2009 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1260669821' post='2019460']
The image of our Lord crucified will probably discourage Muslims from posting
[/quote]

For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

[rkwright]

Mortify I think the central debate is not whether Christ died or not - Muslims claim that another person was on the cross and thus deceived everyone. So no matter how much evidence you bring, a Muslim will always claim the Quran is still right. All the evidence is based off a lie.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this?

Edited December 13, 2009 by rkwright

[mortify]

[quote name='rkwright' date='12 December 2009 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1260671241' post='2019469']
Mortify I think the central debate is not whether Christ died or not - Muslims claim that another person was on the cross and thus deceived everyone. So no matter how much evidence you bring, a Muslim will always claim the Quran is still right. All the evidence is based off a lie.
[/quote]

I think it's true that it's based on a Muslim's faith in Muhammad and not on evidence, but presenting evidence against Muhammad's claim may better dispose these souls to God's grace and therefore help them wake up. From the point of historicity Islam has many a weakness.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='mortify' date='12 December 2009 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1260660468' post='2019372']
[img]http://www.eportfolio.lagcc.cuny.edu/ePortfolios/Intermediate/Juan_PerezREV/IMAGES/Velazquez.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

[Pomak]

[quote name='mortify' date='13 December 2009 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1260669821' post='2019460']
The image of our Lord crucified will probably discourage Muslims from posting
[/quote]
Theologically or historically? Theologically the basis is the disagreement on what Jesus/Isa a.s. was. Historically it was more a case of war rape and pillage. Personally, its because I was born about 400km from Srebrenica.

[Antigonos]

I had always assumed that the basic theological difference between Moslems and Christians was that Moslems do not believe that Jesus was in any way God. There is [b]no[/b] God but Allah. Jesus was as just as human as any other prophet, inspired by God, but not God. But perhaps one of our Moslem members would expand on this?

[Varg]

What are Moslems? Never seen it spelled like that before...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Varg' date='13 December 2009 - 03:16 AM' timestamp='1260699416' post='2019612']
What are Moslems? Never seen it spelled like that before...
[/quote]
That is an older English spelling.

[mortify]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='13 December 2009 - 04:46 AM' timestamp='1260697599' post='2019605']
I had always assumed that the basic theological difference between Moslems and Christians was that Moslems do not believe that Jesus was in any way God. There is [b]no[/b] God but Allah. Jesus was as just as human as any other prophet, inspired by God, but not God. But perhaps one of our Moslem members would expand on this?
[/quote]

But even so called Christians who reject the Trinity are forced to reject Muhammad's message because of his position on the crucifixion. It's for this reason I believe the issue over the crucifixion is of greater importance than the Trinity.

If Muslims recognize that Jesus was crucified it objectively proves their sacred text is in error, and since their sacred text is the main reason for their rejection of the Trinity, it would remove their main obstacle in accepting Jesus for who He really is.

[rkwright]

[quote name='mortify' date='13 December 2009 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1260728789' post='2019696']
But even so called Christians who reject the Trinity are forced to reject Muhammad's message because of his position on the crucifixion. It's for this reason I believe the issue over the crucifixion is of greater importance than the Trinity.

If Muslims recognize that Jesus was crucified it objectively proves their sacred text is in error, and since their sacred text is the main reason for their rejection of the Trinity, it would remove their main obstacle in accepting Jesus for who He really is.
[/quote]

Edit: I agree with you.

Edited December 13, 2009 by rkwright

[mortify]

[quote name='rkwright' date='13 December 2009 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1260728934' post='2019697']
Ok, so do it... how do you prove the crucifixion.
[/quote]

Muslims don't reject that a crucifixion occurred, they reject that Jesus was the one crucified. If you read the quote from Ibn Kathir's commentary (see above) you'll see that he records that one of Jesus' young disciples was made to look like him and then crucified in place of Christ, while the real Jesus was whisked away into heaven unharmed. The entire story is rather strange, and it's interesting that the verse in the Qur'an is addressed to Jews and not Christians. The Jews were boasting that they had killed Jesus and Muhammad responded that Allah deceived them into thinking they killed him, and so the Jews were the real dupes in the end. To me there are several reasons why Muhammad rejected the crucifixion. First of all, it's rather apparent that Muhammad's understanding of mainstream Christianity was vague, very little if anything in the Qur'an addresses what Christians actually believe, instead it addresses misunderstandings of Christianity (i.e. the Quran seems to suggest that Christians believe Jesus is the product of a sexual union between Allah and Mary, Subhannallah, we believe nothing of the sort!) And so because of Muhammad's ignorance he did not understand the significance of the crucifixion, in other words, he did not know that Jesus *had* to die and that this was all part of the Divine plan for salvation. Now if you remove the significance of the crucifixion all you're left with is a barbaric act, and how could Allah permit a prophet to suffer so horribly at the hands of their enemies? To Muhammad it would have been unthinkable. Lastly, it might be possible that some Gnostic elements were present in the Hijaaz, since only the Gnostic traditions come close to paralleling what's in the Qur'an, and it's rather interesting that you'll see Muslims rejecting the Gospels which were written decades after Jesus' resurrection, but they'll accept some Gnostic tale written 200 years later because it corresponds to what the Quran says! So it may very well be that a gnostic tradition of Jesus' crucifixion being an illusion reached Muhammad. The tragedy of it all is that there are a billion people who believe Jesus was never crucified, and they remain in the dark because they're taught reading the Bible is forbidden or at least discouraged... may God help these souls and bring them into the light of Truth.

Now as for proving that Jesus was crucified it would have to begin with some theology, the fact that the Crucifixion and Resurrection were part of the Divine plan, that Jesus was well aware of what awaited Him, and that therefore the crucifixion was not a barbaric act but a necessary means of our salvation. The other thing which I found very powerful, even as a Muslim, were the Old Testament prophecies of the suffering Messiah. Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, and the prophecy in Zechariah all further point to the fact that the Messiah *had* to suffer, and that this suffering would bring about our redemption. I would also go into history and demonstrate that Christians *always* believed in Jesus crucifixion and resurrection, and that there is no tradition of a substitution occurring on the cross. The closest you'll get is the Gnostic traditions, which as mentioned before were written centuries after Jesus, and it's important to remember why the Gnostics rejected the Crucifixion as genuine: The Gnostics didn't necessarily reject Jesus' Divinity, what they rejected was that Christ had a human body, since to them matter (and therefore flesh) was evil because it entrapped our immaterial spirit. So to the Gnostics the crucifixion could have only been an illusion that made Jesus *appear* to be crucified, which is rather similar to what the Qur'an says.

Overall a lot of prayer is required. God willing Muslims will come to recognize that it was Christ who was crucified, that His suffering was real, and that His blood really did run down the beam of the cross... and all this for their salvation!



Rejoice, the Lord is near!

Edited December 13, 2009 by mortify

[rkwright]

I think that as long as the Quran is held to be the word of God - the no matter what evidence you offer of the crucifixion, the response will always be the same: 1) God told us through the Quran that it was not Jesus but someone else and 2) All Christian accounts and tradition have been corrupted.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' date='13 December 2009 - 12:56 PM' timestamp='1260734212' post='2019725']
I think that as long as the Quran is held to be the word of God - the no matter what evidence you offer of the crucifixion, the response will always be the same: 1) God told us through the Quran that it was not Jesus but someone else and 2) All Christian accounts and tradition have been corrupted.
[/quote]
Yes, it is the same type of response that Mormons give in connection with the Book of Mormon.