What Divides Muslims And Christians

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' date='31 December 2009 - 12:39 PM' timestamp='1262284753' post='2027845']
Is this 'Death and Resurrection of Jesus' a historical event?
[/quote]
Yes.

[reyb]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='04 January 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1262638839' post='2029594']
Yes.
[/quote]

In many instances, I asked this question and I got the same result. This 'historical death and resurrection of Jesus Christ more or less 2000 years ago' is just a belief or an interpretation to the scripture. May question is this - who told you that it is a 'historical event'?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' date='11 January 2010 - 08:28 AM' timestamp='1263220128' post='2034664']
In many instances, I asked this question and I got the same result. This 'historical death and resurrection of Jesus Christ more or less 2000 years ago' is just a belief or an interpretation to the scripture. May question is this - who told you that it is a 'historical event'?
[/quote]
Instead of answering your question, which really will get nowhere, let me ask you this:

Do you believe that, say, Gallileo was a real person? Did he live and die and do all the things we hear he did? Why do you believe that? Who told you? What evidence do you have?

Moving further back, how about Polycarp of Smyrna? Was he real, or just invented as a myth for the faithful?

How about Nero? Real, or just a demonized legend?

What about Plato? Moses? Abraham?

[philbo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 January 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1263234599' post='2034902']
Instead of answering your question, which really will get nowhere, let me ask you this:

Do you believe that, say, Gallileo was a real person? Did he live and die and do all the things we hear he did? Why do you believe that? Who told you? What evidence do you have?[/quote]
Gallileo wrote lots of stuff while he was alive - some of these documents are in the British Library. Lots of people wrote about Gallileo while he was still alive.

[quote name='havok579257' date='11 January 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1263245776' post='2035017']
Moving further back, how about Polycarp of Smyrna? Was he real, or just invented as a myth for the faithful?
[/quote]
No idea.. not heard of him (her?) before

[quote name='havok579257' date='11 January 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1263245776' post='2035017']
How about Nero? Real, or just a demonized legend?
[/quote]
Again, people at the time wrote about Nero - there's even coins with his head on.

[quote name='havok579257' date='11 January 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1263245776' post='2035017']
What about Plato? Moses? Abraham?
[/quote]
Plato? Yes. Moses/Abraham... who knows?

Jesus?

..well, who wrote about him when he was alive?

[Mark of the Cross]

Jesus wrote lots of stuff too. The difference being that what Jesus wrote makes profound sense. Even if we were to not accept the 'Son of God part'. Living by his teachings would make the world a better place and life much more enjoyable. Also I think there is a considerable amount of archaeological evidence that such a man did live. It is illogical to think that on the one hand that he would make profound teachings on how to live but at the same time be out of his mind in making claims about God. Schizophrenics are obviously seen for what they are. Jesus addressed 5000 men plus woman and children on one occasion. How many would he have addressed in his ministry in total. These people have passed the history down from generation to generation not to mention manuscripts and the supernatural document of all documents 'The Holy Bible' If this is not sufficient to believe then we cannot believe anything. Even our own existence would be in question. And that's only from a general perspective. Many of us commonly have personal experiences of Jesus as well.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='philbo' date='11 January 2010 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1263247899' post='2035035']
Gallileo wrote lots of stuff while he was alive - some of these documents are in the British Library. Lots of people wrote about Gallileo while he was still alive.


No idea.. not heard of him (her?) before


Again, people at the time wrote about Nero - there's even coins with his head on.


Plato? Yes. Moses/Abraham... who knows?

Jesus?

..well, who wrote about him when he was alive?
[/quote]
Quoted the wrong person.


My point is that their existence is based on some degree of evidence, just as is the existence of Christ. You happen to accept the evidence for many demonstrably real people. I accept the evidence for Jesus Christ.

[Guadalupe23]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='12 December 2009 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1260660567' post='2019374']
That's interesting Mortify!

I didn't know that muslims didn't believe that Christ was crucified.
[/quote]


Ditto....

[Mark of the Cross]

[indent]

[/indent]This is from [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus%27_death"]wikipedia[/url]. I know many will say it's unreliable but it's an interesting take on the subject.
[quote][indent]The denial, furthermore, is in perfect agreement with the logic ofthe Qur’an. The Biblical stories reproduced in it (e.g., Job, Moses,Joseph etc.) and the episodes relating to the history of the beginningof Islam demonstrate that it is "God's practice" (sunnat Allah) to makefaith triumph finally over the forces of evil and adversity. "So trulywith hardship comes ease", (XCIV, 5, 6). For Jesus to die on the crosswould have meant the triumph of his executioners; but the Quran assertsthat they undoubtedly failed: “Assuredly God will defend those whobelieve”; (XXII, 49). He confounds the plots of the enemies of Christ(III, 54).

[/indent]On the interpretation of the minority of Muslims who accept the crucifixion, Mahmoud Ayoub for example states:

[indent]The Qur'an is not here speaking about a man, righteous and wrongedthough he may be, but about the Word of God who was sent to earth andreturned to God. Thus the denial of killing of Jesus is a denial of thepower of men to vanquish and destroy the divine Word, which is for evervictorious.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus%27_death#cite_note-2"][3][/url][/sup]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus%27_death#cite_note-2"]While most [/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus"]Western Scholars[/url][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus%27_death#cite_note-Crossan.2C_John_Dominic_1995_p._145-0"][1][/url][/sup], Jews[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus%27_death#cite_note-3"][4][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus%27_death#cite_note-4"][5][/url][/sup]and Christians believe Jesus died, some Muslims believe he was raisedto Heaven without being put on the cross and God transformed anotherperson to appear exactly like Jesus who was crucified instead of Jesus.Jesus ascended bodily to Heaven, being in a state of stasis until his [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_coming"]Second coming[/url] in the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_days"]End days[/url].

[/indent][/quote][indent]

[/indent]

[philbo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 January 2010 - 03:21 AM' timestamp='1263262863' post='2035124']
Quoted the wrong person.
[/quote]
Oops.. mea culpa - the problem with copy & paste is remembering to copy

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 January 2010 - 03:21 AM' timestamp='1263262863' post='2035124']
My point is that their existence is based on some degree of evidence, just as is the existence of Christ. You happen to accept the evidence for many demonstrably real people. I accept the evidence for Jesus Christ.
[/quote]
You did fail to answer the question, though: who did write about Jesus when he was alive?

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='11 January 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1263247899' post='2035035']
Again, people at the time wrote about Nero - there's even coins with his head on.

[/quote]
There are also coins with "George Washington" on them. As if this man ever existed.

[philbo]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1263305793' post='2035325']
There are also coins with "George Washington" on them. As if this man ever existed.
[/quote]
Your point being?

I thought mine was fairly obvious: who wrote about Jesus while he was alive? What contemporary evidence is there for the chap at all?

[Jaime]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 January 2010 - 08:50 PM' timestamp='1263261023' post='2035110']
Jesus wrote lots of stuff too. The difference being that what Jesus wrote makes profound sense. Even if we were to not accept the 'Son of God part'. Living by his teachings would make the world a better place and life much more enjoyable. Also I think there is a considerable amount of archaeological evidence that such a man did live. It is illogical to think that on the one hand that he would make profound teachings on how to live but at the same time be out of his mind in making claims about God. Schizophrenics are obviously seen for what they are. Jesus addressed 5000 men plus woman and children on one occasion. How many would he have addressed in his ministry in total. These people have passed the history down from generation to generation not to mention manuscripts and the supernatural document of all documents 'The Holy Bible' If this is not sufficient to believe then we cannot believe anything. Even our own existence would be in question. And that's only from a general perspective. Many of us commonly have personal experiences of Jesus as well.
[/quote]


Jesus SAID a bunch of stuff. He didn't write anything.

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 11:12 AM' timestamp='1263312740' post='2035379']
Your point being?[/quote]


[quote]
I thought mine was fairly obvious: who wrote about Jesus while he was alive? [/quote]
The guy who wrote that sign over His head on the Cross was one.

[quote]
What contemporary evidence is there for the chap at all?
[/quote]
You're talking about Him, aren't ya?

You don't accept the evidence. You say that and you quit looking so foolish.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Winchester

[philbo]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1263314671' post='2035391']
The guy who wrote that sign over His head on the Cross was one.
[/quote]
And we "know" this because it was written about decades later by someone who wasn't there.

Who was around at the time, writing about this guy working miracles in front of crowds?

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1263314671' post='2035391']
You say that and you quit looking so foolish.
[/quote]
I'm looking foolish because I don't accept on faith something for which there is no contemporary evidence? In your eyes, perhaps.

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1263314971' post='2035395']
And we "know" this because it was written about decades later by someone who wasn't there.

Who was around at the time, writing about this guy working miracles in front of crowds?[/quote]
You think all history was recorded by eyewitnesses?

[quote]
I'm looking foolish because I don't accept on faith something for which there is no contemporary evidence? In your eyes, perhaps.
[/quote]
You're looking foolish because you are claiming there's no evidence. There is evidence--you don't accept it.

[philbo]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1263315074' post='2035396']
You think all history was recorded by eyewitnesses?


You're looking foolish because you are claiming there's no evidence. There is evidence--you don't accept it.
[/quote]
For someone who on another thread was picking me up on precisely what I was quoting, you're pretty slipshod about your own accuracy, aren't you?

Show me where I claimed there was no evidence. Is the word "contemporary" that difficult to understand? Where did I say "all history was recorded by eyewitnesses"?

Maybe you could simply answer the question: who, at the time, was writing down what this miracle-worker was doing? It's not exactly a difficult question to understand.

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1263316843' post='2035412']
For someone who on another thread was picking me up on precisely what I was quoting, you're pretty slipshod about your own accuracy, aren't you?[/quote]
Somebody's mad.
[quote]
Show me where I claimed there was no evidence. Is the word "contemporary" that difficult to understand? Where did I say "all history was recorded by eyewitnesses"?[/quote]
You're complaining that you don't know of any contemporaries of Jesus writing about Him.

[quote]
Maybe you could simply answer the question: who, at the time, was writing down what this miracle-worker was doing? It's not exactly a difficult question to understand.
[/quote]
Stanley Ismael Horowitz. Not many people have heard of him, but he is the precursor of all roving reporters and lived next to Jesus while they were growing up.

Where is it a requirement or a proof that an historical figure have a chronicler? How often was this done in Jewish culture at the time? The protties do this same wretched imitation of the Socratic method with their talking point arguments, so who gave this idea? If you came up with it on your own, congratulations because at first blush it looks like an actual argument with an actual point.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 04:29 AM' timestamp='1263292153' post='2035296']


You did fail to answer the question, though: who did write about Jesus when he was alive?
[/quote]
Nobody.

On the other hand, nobody wrote about my grandfather while he was alive either. I never personally met him. Can I be sure he existed?


Of course this ignores the obvious point that a staggering number of people wrote about Him immediately following His death and Resurrection.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='13 January 2010 - 03:31 AM' timestamp='1263313882' post='2035386']
Jesus SAID a bunch of stuff. He didn't write anything.
[/quote]

Yeah I know what you mean, but I was saying it in a round about fashion. The Bible is the word of God, Jesus is God, therefore Jesus wrote the new testament by his actions. For example Einstein didn't write anything either, nor did Hawking (he can't) writers did it for them however we generally accept that it was them who wrote their theories. The stations of the cross were written by men. I have compiled a version with pictures based on my time in East Timor which I give freely to people, namely our RCIA Catecumins. People jokingly tell me that I should copy-write it. I reply that I can't because it was Jesus who wrote the stations of the cross. But technically you are correct Jesus never actually put pen to paper that we know of. It's just another one of those literal or hypothetical thingies that we get hung up on.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='philbo' date='13 January 2010 - 03:49 AM' timestamp='1263314971' post='2035395']
And we "know" this because it was written about decades later by someone who wasn't there.

[/quote]

The Apostles wrote about the history of Jesus ministry, four of them. Even though they wrote it years later they were there! And they wrote about it. Do you challenge the memory of four men who wrote very close to the same thing. Without doubt the four gospels were written for this very purpose of proof for people who stubbornly refuse to believe the history of Christ. But even the apostles had a hard time believing, so God brought two of them to a mountain where Jesus became supernatural and Moses and Elijah appeared. These men were Jews like the apostles so their appearance was to convince them to believe when they heard God speak and tell them to believe what Jesus was telling them. This was hard for them because Jews expected Jesus to lead them to freedom from the Romans not to be put to death to show the world that he would bring them to everlasting life through their own death. And Jews still haven't realised this!

Edited January 13, 2010 by Mark of the Cross