The Church Dogmatically Teaches The Muslims Worship The One True God

[Winchester]

This is the allegation.

[Nihil Obstat]

I refute it *[i]thus[/i]*!

[Winchester]

Ol' 95+ made this allegation and then backed down because he knows he's out of his league.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' date='15 December 2009 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1260913914' post='2021243']
Ol' 95+ made this allegation and then backed down because he knows he's out of his league.
[/quote]
My masterful refutation will remain unchallenged.

[Winchester]

Even if he answers, it won't really be a [i]challenge[/i].

[HisChildForever]

He just posted, so...he'll probably be coming this way shortly.

[Winchester]

ho hum

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

The Church does not Dogmatically teach this and stormstopper knows it. thats probably why hes not posting.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='15 December 2009 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1260916875' post='2021349']
The Church does not Dogmatically teach this and stormstopper knows it. thats probably why hes not posting.
[/quote]
Naw, he's just afraid that Samuel Johnson's ghost will refute his argument even more harshly next time.

[Apotheoun]

I posted the comment below in another thread, but it fits nicely here:

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 December 2009 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1260904137' post='2021109']
[quote name='Stormstopper' date='14 December 2009 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1260853135' post='2020823']
Excuse me, but if the Bible and the Quran are mutually exclusive, why then did Vatican II dogmatically teach that God and Allah are the same: that Muslims worship the one true God???
[/quote]
Vatican II was not a dogmatic council, nor is the object of Muslim worship open to dogmatic formulation by the Magisterium.
[/quote]

[Maggyie]

I don't believe this is dogma, myself, however the section in Vatican II in which the issue of Muslim worship is addressed is called the [i]Dogmatic[/i] Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium). I don't know why the fathers would use the word "dogmatic" unless they meant... dogmatic. So I can see where he is coming from.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Maggie

[Winchester]

You think believing that is part of the Depositum Fidei?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Maggie' date='15 December 2009 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1260919615' post='2021418']
I don't believe this is dogma, myself, however the section in Vatican II in which the issue of Muslim worship is addressed is called the [i]Dogmatic[/i] Constitution of the Church (Lumen Gentium). I don't know why the fathers would use the word "dogmatic" unless they meant... dogmatic. So I can see where he is coming from.
[/quote]

No, the quotation, "They [the Moslems] adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth," comes from [i]Nostra Aetate[/i], not from [i]Lumen Gentium[/i]. [i]Nostra Aetate[/i] is not a dogmatic constitution. It is a "declaration".

Edited December 15, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

It is no more a dogma that the Moslems adore the one God than it is a dogma that Matthew was written before the other three gospels. Both are merely teachings that have been non-infallibly enunciated by the authentic Magisterium of the Church. This means that the faithful are "to ensure that they avoid whatever does not accord with that doctrine" ([i]Code of Canon Law[/i], can. 752)

Edited December 15, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 December 2009 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1260919840' post='2021426']
No, the quotation, "They [the Moslems] adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth," comes from [i]Nostra Aetate[/i], not from [i]Lumen Gentium[/i]. [i]Nostra Aetate[/i] is not a dogmatic constitution. It is a "declaration".
[/quote]

The relevant paragraph is Lumen Gentium pargraph 16.

[quote]But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind[/quote]

[url="Lumen Gentium"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html[/url]

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Winchester' date='15 December 2009 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1260919748' post='2021422']
You think believing that is part of the Depositum Fidei?
[/quote]

Not really. I am not a theologian, though, and "dogmatic" is not a term that Catholics throw around lightly. Do you have any idea what the Council meant by using the word "dogmatic" if not, "this stuff under here, it's dogmatic"?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Maggie' date='15 December 2009 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1260920964' post='2021460']
The relevant paragraph is Lumen Gentium pargraph 16.



[url="Lumen Gentium"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html[/url]
[/quote]

Okay. That still doesn't make it a dogma though.

[HisChildForever]

I feel like Apo has made 100 posts explaining this.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Maggie' date='15 December 2009 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1260919615' post='2021418']
I don't believe this is dogma, myself, however the section in Vatican II in which the issue of Muslim worship is addressed is called the [i]Dogmatic[/i] Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium). I don't know why the fathers would use the word "dogmatic" unless they meant... dogmatic. So I can see where he is coming from.
[/quote]
As Pope Paul VI said in connection with the documents issued at Vatican II: "Differing from other Councils, this one was not directly dogmatic, but disciplinary and pastoral." In other words, Vatican II issued no dogmatic formulations, but merely reaffirmed pre-existing ones, and who Muslims worship has never been, nor can it be, defined by the Magisterium.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 December 2009 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1260921523' post='2021477']
Okay. That still doesn't make it a dogma though.
[/quote]
Correct. Vatican II was called as a pastoral council, which is why none of its formulations are directly dogmatic.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Apotheoun