Kneeling During The Creed

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='26 December 2009 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1261859585' post='2026308']
How so? I didn't even realize until a couple years ago that Canada did things differently.
[/quote]
The rubrics in the OF has the Nicene, no?

[Resurrexi]

Where I attend Mass, we [i]always[/i] kneel at the words "Et incarnatus est..." in the Credo.

[loveletslive]

my priest reminded us that this is one of the 2 times during the year that we genuflect during the creed so everyone did, in general though most everyone bows. we are blessed with very orthodox priests so everything goes down as it should

however, at my newman center & the other local parish i am always one of the few people that bow at the appropriate time during the creed

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='26 December 2009 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1261859835' post='2026310']
The rubrics in the OF has the Nicene, no?
[/quote]
Can't say I've read that bit, unfortunately.

The CCCB has the authority to make that kind of change though, with the approval of the Vatican, right?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='mortify' date='26 December 2009 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1261859559' post='2026307']
I just don't understand the widespread disregard for what it says in the missal
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
a. most people don't know that all the prayers of the Mass are in the missal
b. most people don't know what a missal is.

[Maximilianus]

I think the missal also indicates to strike your chest during the Confeitor but most people don't.

[homeschoolmom]

I cannot really vote. On regular Sundays I am bowing, so I can't tell what everyone else is doing (I'm towards the front). On Christmas, we did not kneel. We have not knelt on Christmas since our previous priest left. I guess our current priest is not concerned about it. (Maybe I'll ask him about that... )

[mortify]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='26 December 2009 - 05:32 PM' timestamp='1261866723' post='2026351']
+J.M.J.+
a. most people don't know that all the prayers of the Mass are in the missal
b. most people don't know what a missal is.


[/quote]

I didn't mention this but even if everyone were ignorant of the missal, as long as Catholics were doing the right thing a tradition would be established and the proper actions would be passed on.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='mortify' date='26 December 2009 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1261870976' post='2026368']
I didn't mention this but even if everyone were ignorant of the missal, as long as Catholics were doing the right thing a tradition would be established and the proper actions would be passed on.
[/quote]
+JMJ+
too true but then you'd have to depend on the priest doing the right thing, which isn't always easy to find.

[Maximilianus]

From the Curt Jester's [url="http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/003990.php"]"Liturgy for Ignoramuses"[/url]


[quote][b]Profession of Faith - The Creed[/b]
The Nicene Creed is then recited by all of the faithful.
During this part of the creed: " by the power of the
Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became
man." All are to make a profound bow. At Christmas,
all are to genuflect at these words.

[b]What's up with that? [/b]
You might ask "Hey I am following the postures you
are specifying, but I see nobody else doing them?"
To learn the answer to that, it is time to meet
the Liturgist.

[b]The Liturgist[/b]
The Liturgist has the difficult task of reading
the plain words of the GIRM and then writing
documents and instructing others into why kneeling
really means to stand up.
If you want to understand the saying "talk till
you are blue in the face", then try arguing with
a liturgist.
My suggestion if approached by a liturgist is to
not listen and to nod politely as they talk and
then run at your first opportunity.
[/quote]

[mortify]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='26 December 2009 - 06:45 PM' timestamp='1261871141' post='2026369']
+JMJ+
too true but then you'd have to depend on the priest doing the right thing, which isn't always easy to find.
[/quote]

Would you really need a priest to do it? If the laity were on the ball it wouldn't matter.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='mortify' date='26 December 2009 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1261872609' post='2026378']
Would you really need a priest to do it? If the laity were on the ball it wouldn't matter.
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
if nobody knows to do it but the priest, and he won't show the people, isn't it the priest's fault?

[mortify]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='26 December 2009 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1261874326' post='2026384']
+J.M.J.+
if nobody knows to do it but the priest, and he won't show the people, isn't it the priest's fault?
[/quote]

Maybe in the past when the laity weren't cultivated but today people have materials to guide them and the ability to read them. I agree that priests should do more but really, what can they do? The crisis we have really has to do with a lack of faith.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='mortify' date='26 December 2009 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1261877504' post='2026392']The crisis we have really has to do with a lack of faith.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
brought about by a lack of catechesis.

for example, the Mass that i went to, the priest just said what to do when - especially right before the Creed he said "and at by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man., please kneel." it was that simple.

[Mr.Cat]

With exception of the local Latin Mass Community and the Anglican Use Community, most Parishes or Masses I have been to people neither bow their heads or genuflect, for the creed namely, but also for many parts of the mass that it is thought appropriate to show some kind of reverence. Since I have been attending the local Latin Mass Community, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest people don’t bow or genuflect, it might be regrettable that a beautiful tradition of Catholicism has been given an empty meaning or lost all together. It was a tradition that while beautiful in my personal opinion, it’s not necessary and that people come to participate in the holy mass in their own way, they are there to witness the sacrifice of the mass.

Because the Extraordinary Form is so different in attitude than the Ordinary Form, my personal opinion again, I have had times that mass for me was incoherently watching the mass so sadden and lost that all I did was just be there. No one was rude or impolite to me about it, it was just appreciated that I was there, and honestly it’s a very happy and touching moment for my faith that one could just go before the cross and just throw one’s self down. Forget trying to get everything right, just get there, and people would be content and pleased with that, and care about your well being overall.

When I am at mass I tend to make the signs of the cross where one traditionally makes them in the Extraordinary Form, I genuflect, and I also receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion when I do kneeling and in the mouth. Theses gestures have special and heart felt meanings to me, but to expect everyone to think or feel the way I do about it, I have given up on and I don’t think it should be so. There is a man who organized and runs our local Latin Mass Community who teased about the very traditional and didactic homilies from our Priest at the time, saying he could get more of his rosary in during that time, and he goes along at his own pace and has a very practical outlook on life. Perhaps that’s what I enjoy the most about the people there, the faith is very real to them but it’s human.

This peaceful attitude of mine was seemed to surprise my family when I went to mass with them, the Ordinary Form, several little kids who were loud, moving around, one waving a “wand” around just didn’t bother me. I was just appreciative that the people and children got there, which in my time with the Latin Mass Community, while there is importance to the rituals and reverence, it’s not the most important, charity is which our whole Religion rests. We have a religion and faith of the heart, if there is no charity there is no faith.

"All our religion is but a false religion, and all our virtues are mere illusions and we ourselves are only hypocrites in the sight of God, if we have not that universal charity for everyone - for the good, and for the bad, for the poor and for the rich, and for all those who do us harm as much as those who do us good." - [url="http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-john-mary-vianney/"][b]Saint John Vianney[/b][/url]

[Gregorius]

My priest asked everybody to kneel last year at those words. He didn't this year, but then, he has problems kneeling. He has made it clear in the past that people are always to at least bow, however, and everybody in the sanctuary always does so. And people still don't follow the instructions. I just don't get it.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='26 December 2009 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1261882727' post='2026418']
With exception of the local Latin Mass Community and the Anglican Use Community, most Parishes or Masses I have been to people neither bow their heads or genuflect, for the creed namely, but also for many parts of the mass that it is thought appropriate to show some kind of reverence. Since I have been attending the local Latin Mass Community, it doesn't bother me in the slightest people don't bow or genuflect, it might be regrettable that a beautiful tradition of Catholicism has been given an empty meaning or lost all together. It was a tradition that while beautiful in my personal opinion, it's not necessary and that people come to participate in the holy mass in their own way, they are there to witness the sacrifice of the mass.

Because the Extraordinary Form is so different in attitude than the Ordinary Form, my personal opinion again, I have had times that mass for me was incoherently watching the mass so sadden and lost that all I did was just be there. No one was rude or impolite to me about it, it was just appreciated that I was there, and honestly it's a very happy and touching moment for my faith that one could just go before the cross and just throw one's self down. Forget trying to get everything right, just get there, and people would be content and pleased with that, and care about your well being overall.

When I am at mass I tend to make the signs of the cross where one traditionally makes them in the Extraordinary Form, I genuflect, and I also receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion when I do kneeling and in the mouth. Theses gestures have special and heart felt meanings to me, but to expect everyone to think or feel the way I do about it, I have given up on and I don't think it should be so. There is a man who organized and runs our local Latin Mass Community who teased about the very traditional and didactic homilies from our Priest at the time, saying he could get more of his rosary in during that time, and he goes along at his own pace and has a very practical outlook on life. Perhaps that's what I enjoy the most about the people there, the faith is very real to them but it's human.

This peaceful attitude of mine was seemed to surprise my family when I went to mass with them, the Ordinary Form, several little kids who were loud, moving around, one waving a "wand" around just didn't bother me. I was just appreciative that the people and children got there, which in my time with the Latin Mass Community, while there is importance to the rituals and reverence, it's not the most important, charity is which our whole Religion rests. We have a religion and faith of the heart, if there is no charity there is no faith.

"All our religion is but a false religion, and all our virtues are mere illusions and we ourselves are only hypocrites in the sight of God, if we have not that universal charity for everyone - for the good, and for the bad, for the poor and for the rich, and for all those who do us harm as much as those who do us good." - [url="http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-john-mary-vianney/"][b]Saint John Vianney[/b][/url]
[/quote]

While we should have charity and empathy for our fellow man, your description makes rituals completely personal and subjective. Our gestures should be personal of course, but they must also follow in the Church's tradition. If they don't they run the risk of reflecting only ourselves instead of our relationship with God. Tradition and "rules" about specific gestures are there to guide our mental and spiritual attitudes when approaching the Almighty. God's attitude has never been "do what works for you". Edit: His attitude is rather, "do what the Church has set forth and it WILL work for you". I suggest you read [i]Spirit of the Liturgy[/i] by Cardinal Ratzinger, and also the chapter on the Our Father in [i]Jesus of Nazareth[/i].

Edited December 27, 2009 by aalpha1989

[Nunsense]

I attend the EF Mass and ALL our parishioners kneel during the Creed at "Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine et homo factus est", and we also bow our heads at the mention of the name of Jesus.

Of course we are used to kneeling and bowing a lot. We kneel during the reading of St John's Gospel at the end of Mass during "At Verbum caro factum est", and we bow our heads during the consecration etc (while also kneeling).

We also bow (while kneeling) during reposition of the Blessed Sacrament while the bell is ringing and we kneel on both knees when entering or leaving the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

We are a very reverent group and I feel very much at home there. It is very strange for me now to attend even a really good Novus Ordo Mass unless there is a lot of reverence shown for the Real Presence. I attended an Exposition in the city last week at a church that isn't usually too bad, but while the Blessed Sacrament was exposed, a Deacon came in to do something near the altar, and barely gave a nod of his head to indicate that he was even aware of the Presence of Our Lord. It was very disedifying to see. And then a lay woman (sacristan or helper of some sort) removed the Blessed Sacrament from the Monstrance and carried it back to the tabernacle, where she discovered she didn't have a key, so she just put it laying down in front of the tabernacle while she went off to get the key! At the Latin Mass Church, only the priest touches the Blessed Sacrament, and he always wears a humeral veil during repositioning.

My agnostic sister attended the two hour EF Midnight Mass with me for Christmas and she was fascinated by everything and told me that next time she goes she intends to sit closer so she can really see what the priests and servers are doing. She laughed at being caught out when we knelt (very briefly) during St John's Gospel because she wasn't expecting it to be so quick. Seeing it all through her eyes was interesting for me too. I was glad that she got to see how reverently Our Lord is treated and just how real His Real Presence is for our priests and congregation. If we, the faithful, are aware of the presence of God in our Church, then those who come to visit will also be made aware of this. We are so blessed in our faith and in belonging the Catholic Church.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='26 December 2009 - 10:13 PM' timestamp='1261883590' post='2026425']While we should have charity and empathy for our fellow man, your description makes rituals completely personal and subjective. Our gestures should be personal of course, but they must also follow in the Church's tradition. If they don't they run the risk of reflecting only ourselves instead of our relationship with God. Tradition and "rules" about specific gestures are there to guide our mental and spiritual attitudes when approaching the Almighty. God's attitude has never been "do what works for you". Edit: His attitude is rather, "do what the Church has set forth and it WILL work for you". I suggest you read [i]Spirit of the Liturgy[/i] by Cardinal Ratzinger, and also the chapter on the Our Father in [i]Jesus of Nazareth[/i].[/quote]I suggest if someone thinks that rituals come before charity, then they are seriously mistaken. The attitude that involvement or participation in the Holy Mass is limited to following verbatim rituals or rules is very alien to the Extraordinary Form. This is of course coming from someone like myself who has a deep love, appreciation, and preference to tradition, namely the Extraordinary Form which I frequently attend.

While I think you may be trying to find a way to inject implications that are not intended in my message, if you want to recommend reading for me you are welcome, but if you want to support your ideas you need to provide actual quotations with sources to substantiate it. But since the Church currently finds it acceptable to attend the Ordinary Form or Extraordinary Form, which many prayers the celebrant Priest says in the Canon is intended to be inaudible in the Extraordinary Form, to suggest that the Extraordinary Form somehow places participation in the Holy Mass limited to repeating gestures or words, or is somehow above charity, is simply ludicrous.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='27 December 2009 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1261890957' post='2026478']
I suggest if someone thinks that rituals come before charity, then they are seriously mistaken. The attitude that involvement or participation in the Holy Mass is limited to following verbatim rituals or rules is very alien to the Extraordinary Form. This is of course coming from someone like myself who has a deep love, appreciation, and preference to tradition, namely the Extraordinary Form which I frequently attend.

While I think you may be trying to find a way to inject implications that are not intended in my message, if you want to recommend reading for me you are welcome, but if you want to support your ideas you need to provide actual quotations with sources to substantiate it. But since the Church currently finds it acceptable to attend the Ordinary Form or Extraordinary Form, which many prayers the celebrant Priest says in the Canon is intended to be inaudible in the Extraordinary Form, to suggest that the Extraordinary Form somehow places participation in the Holy Mass limited to repeating gestures or words, or is somehow above charity, is simply ludicrous.
[/quote]

What I like about the EF Mass is that it offers both the opportunity to follow strict liturgical rubrics, while also offering time for contemplation, private prayer and reflection. I also appreciate that the Mass is between me and God, and the sacrifice is being offered on my behalf (and on behalf of the whole Church) by the priest and that I can offer myself to God without being involved in a "community social event". I don't think that this lacks in charity however, because our first commandment is to love God, and our second is to love our neighbor. So I make Mass about God and this feeds my soul and fills my heart so that I am able to then offer myself to my neighbor while living in this world. The EF is neither entirely verbatim ritual (although it does have very straighforward rubrics) or independent prayer, but a combination of both. The congregation where I attend is very ritualistic in response and I like this, but I also like that I can feel alone while being surrounded by others.

Edited December 27, 2009 by nunsense