Kneeling During The Creed

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='27 December 2009 - 12:15 AM' timestamp='1261890957' post='2026478']
I suggest if someone thinks that rituals come before charity, then they are seriously mistaken. The attitude that involvement or participation in the Holy Mass is limited to following verbatim rituals or rules is very alien to the Extraordinary Form. This is of course coming from someone like myself who has a deep love, appreciation, and preference to tradition, namely the Extraordinary Form which I frequently attend.

While I think you may be trying to find a way to inject implications that are not intended in my message, if you want to recommend reading for me you are welcome, but if you want to support your ideas you need to provide actual quotations with sources to substantiate it. But since the Church currently finds it acceptable to attend the Ordinary Form or Extraordinary Form, which many prayers the celebrant Priest says in the Canon is intended to be inaudible in the Extraordinary Form, to suggest that the Extraordinary Form somehow places participation in the Holy Mass limited to repeating gestures or words, or is somehow above charity, is simply ludicrous.
[/quote]

You are misreading my post, I am sorry if I was unclear. I never said that rubrics come before charity, I only think your vision of charity is a bit skewed. I think the rubrics are there to aid our spiritual charity (versus physical charity), but of course one must understand the proper order of charity in order to understand the rubrics at all. The proper order of spiritual charity is God, self, others (whereas the proper order of physical charity is God, others, self). In [i]Spirit of the Liturgy[/i], Ratzinger discusses how important the rubrics really are. He says that the exodus from Egypt really had nothing to do with the Israelites physical freedom. The Israelites left solely because Pharaoh was restricting the [i]way[/i] they worshipped. He allowed them to worship, but forced a different form upon them, which God found unacceptable.

In [i]Jesus of Nazareth[/i] the Pope says almost exactly what I stated in my last post; prayer should be personal, but it MUST be guided by the Church and the prayers and formulas provided by her, otherwise it begins to reflect ONLY oneself instead of one's relationship with God.

I never meant to discuss "participation" in the Mass past one's own personal prayer. All I meant to say was that one's prayer must be aided by the gestures given by the Church. You are drawing many conclusions that I never hinted at in my post. Mine was meant simply as a reality check. It was veiled, but I'll just say it.

It is not charity to deem kids waving "wands" at Mass ok. It is instead a subjective view on prayer, "do what you want". Our attitude should not be "at least they're there". We should expect kids to behave at Mass, and we should expect parents to enforce behavior at Mass. Of course I don't think that's the kind of thing we should be [i]looking for[/i] at Mass. We shouldn't be behavior police, we should focus on our own sacrifice. If it comes up in conversation, though, we should charitably explain truth.

Just for the record, the EF has fewer mandatory postures for the faithful. The postures are supposed to be conducive to one's personal prayer and participation in Christ's sacrifice. What I really took issue with in your post was your seemingly erroneous view of charity.

[jeffpugh]

Back on the topic of the OF, I've been to some masses in my diocese that were held once a month before the [i]sumorum pontificum[/i] came out. It's wonderful seeing the mass of Vatican II prayed strictly to the rubrics and in Latin and following the [i]Hermeneutic of Continuity[/i] (is that the right application of the term?). It's hard on the priest though cause the Roman cannon needs to be said aloud, and it's usually sung. lawl. At least, it was hard on the celebrant because he didn't have any formal training. A bit of that can go a long way. I consider offering that to priests sometimes, but I dunno how they'd take it. I don't mean insult, but I'd love to see them just get better and better. It's a human thing to want to progress /tangent

[Archaeology cat]

I made sure to look at the Creed in the missal today, and it definitely provides instructions for bowing during the Creed, and kneeling at that point at Christmas and the Annunciation.

[quote name='Maximilianus' date='26 December 2009 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1261870668' post='2026366']
I think the missal also indicates to strike your chest during the Confeitor but most people don't.
[/quote]
I'll have to check that part now. I'm pretty sure it does say that in the GIRM, so I'd imagine it's printed in the parish missal (or so I'd hope).

[quote name='Lil Red' date='27 December 2009 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1261879623' post='2026403']
+J.M.J.+
brought about by a lack of catechesis.

for example, the Mass that i went to, the priest just said what to do when - especially right before the Creed he said "and at by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man., please kneel." it was that simple.
[/quote]
I'd pretty much agree.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='nunsense' date='27 December 2009 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1261892158' post='2026482']What I like about the EF Mass is that it offers both the opportunity to follow strict liturgical rubrics, while also offering time for contemplation, private prayer and reflection. I also appreciate that the Mass is between me and God, and the sacrifice is being offered on my behalf (and on behalf of the whole Church) by the priest and that I can offer myself to God without being involved in a "community social event". I don't think that this lacks in charity however, because our first commandment is to love God, and our second is to love our neighbor. So I make Mass about God and this feeds my soul and fills my heart so that I am able to then offer myself to my neighbor while living in this world. The EF is neither entirely verbatim ritual (although it does have very straighforward rubrics) or independent prayer, but a combination of both. The congregation where I attend is very ritualistic in response and I like this, but I also like that I can feel alone while being surrounded by others.[/quote][quote name='aalpha1989' date='27 December 2009 - 01:08 AM' timestamp='1261894116' post='2026489']You are misreading my post, I am sorry if I was unclear. I never said that rubrics come before charity, I only think your vision of charity is a bit skewed. I think the rubrics are there to aid our spiritual charity (versus physical charity), but of course one must understand the proper order of charity in order to understand the rubrics at all. The proper order of spiritual charity is God, self, others (whereas the proper order of physical charity is God, others, self). In [i]Spirit of the Liturgy[/i], Ratzinger discusses how important the rubrics really are. He says that the exodus from Egypt really had nothing to do with the Israelites physical freedom. The Israelites left solely because Pharaoh was restricting the [i]way[/i] they worshipped. He allowed them to worship, but forced a different form upon them, which God found unacceptable.

In [i]Jesus of Nazareth[/i] the Pope says almost exactly what I stated in my last post; prayer should be personal, but it MUST be guided by the Church and the prayers and formulas provided by her, otherwise it begins to reflect ONLY oneself instead of one's relationship with God.

I never meant to discuss "participation" in the Mass past one's own personal prayer. All I meant to say was that one's prayer must be aided by the gestures given by the Church. You are drawing many conclusions that I never hinted at in my post. Mine was meant simply as a reality check. It was veiled, but I'll just say it.

It is not charity to deem kids waving "wands" at Mass ok. It is instead a subjective view on prayer, "do what you want". Our attitude should not be "at least they're there". We should expect kids to behave at Mass, and we should expect parents to enforce behavior at Mass. Of course I don't think that's the kind of thing we should be [i]looking for[/i] at Mass. We shouldn't be behavior police, we should focus on our own sacrifice. If it comes up in conversation, though, we should charitably explain truth.

Just for the record, the EF has fewer mandatory postures for the faithful. The postures are supposed to be conducive to one's personal prayer and participation in Christ's sacrifice. What I really took issue with in your post was your seemingly erroneous view of charity.[/quote]When either of you take the time to read what I wrote and directly find what I wrote that was wrong, then provide evidence and reason to why it is wrong, then I will take this seriously. Until then I am taking this as you are trying to inject something into what I wrote that simply is not there, for it was simply a personal comparison between the local Latin Mass Community here that I frequently attend and other Parishes I have been to.

Which I find it wonderful that I am finding people here so obsessed with rituals, which are arbitrary in nature as even the Church will admit, and so selfish that a child is offence enough to get upset. It reminds me of the story of our Lord’s disciples turning the children away, what I appreciate about the Latin Mass Community is its welcoming, tolerant, accepting, and inclusive nature. Perhaps you could take a lesson from the kind of Charity that was espoused by our Lord and His Saints.

But then again maybe your right, everyone has to think and be exactly like you, and if their not they need to be expelled! Because if they do not follow a ritual that started in France from the French King, that happened almost a thousand years after the time of our Lord well certainly, EXPELL them. Because its not charity to accept people the way they are or love them regardless, it’s erroneous to be patient and tolerant. I love this thinking, it reminds me of fundamentalists and why I avoid them at all costs.

Then again, I don’t think your comments are quite relevant to what I wrote before, so I will take it as you misunderstood me and maybe I misunderstood you. Maybe I am just a bit annoyed by people who think the world is going to implode and split apart because I don’t sing at the top of my lungs when I have laryngitis or stand when they do. Perhaps I am grouping you with ideas and people that have nothing to do with you, if that is the case please forgive me. Though I will admit, the children at the Latin Mass Community are very well behaved, but it is apart of the reason I appreciate it so much. Then again, me not being easily annoyed by other people, clearly something is wrong with me. EXPELL!!!

Edited December 27, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Mr.Cat]

Actually, on second thought, forget it...

[MIKolbe]

Our priest instructed us to bow.

Of course, the church was overflowing (I was in a chair in the far right aisle), the 'gathering space' was also converted to hold people, and much of the assembly was standing room only.

I was tempted to tell someone who did not look familiar that I had season tickets, and they were sitting in my seat. But, Christian charity won out that day.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='27 December 2009 - 08:56 PM' timestamp='1261907816' post='2026506']
When either of you take the time to read what I wrote and directly find what I wrote that was wrong, then provide evidence and reason to why it is wrong, then I will take this seriously. Until then I am taking this as you are trying to inject something into what I wrote that simply is not there, for it was simply a personal comparison between the local Latin Mass Community here that I frequently attend and other Parishes I have been to.

Which I find it wonderful that I am finding people here so obsessed with rituals, which are arbitrary in nature as even the Church will admit, and so selfish that a child is offence enough to get upset. It reminds me of the story of our Lord’s disciples turning the children away, what I appreciate about the Latin Mass Community is its welcoming, tolerant, accepting, and inclusive nature. Perhaps you could take a lesson from the kind of Charity that was espoused by our Lord and His Saints.

But then again maybe your right, everyone has to think and be exactly like you, and if their not they need to be expelled! Because if they do not follow a ritual that started in France from the French King, that happened almost a thousand years after the time of our Lord well certainly, EXPELL them. Because its not charity to accept people the way they are or love them regardless, it’s erroneous to be patient and tolerant. I love this thinking, it reminds me of fundamentalists and why I avoid them at all costs.

Then again, I don’t think your comments are quite relevant to what I wrote before, so I will take it as you misunderstood me and maybe I misunderstood you. Maybe I am just a bit annoyed by people who think the world is going to implode and split apart because I don’t sing at the top of my lungs when I have laryngitis or stand when they do. Perhaps I am grouping you with ideas and people that have nothing to do with you, if that is the case please forgive me. Though I will admit, the children at the Latin Mass Community are very well behaved, but it is apart of the reason I appreciate it so much. Then again, me not being easily annoyed by other people, clearly something is wrong with me. EXPELL!!!
[/quote]


I don't know how to do the multiquote thing or I would have added your second post which says to forget it. I'm glad you added that. Otherwise I was about to go "Wow, what crawled into your underwear!" I have no idea how anything that I posted could have been construed as a criticism of anything you wrote since I was agreeing that the EF Mass is wonderful! I only said that it is great because there are rubrics AND there is time for private interpretation. This was a positive thing, not a criticism of you. So perhaps you are feeling a little sensitive right now about something else, which has spilled over onto this forum? I don't know. But I do know that all I wanted to say was how much I love attending an EF Mass. It was in response to the fact that you like it so much too. But I think I will think twice before responding to your posts in future now - or just try to choose my words a lot more carefully since I have no desire to get you all upset!

[Nunsense]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='27 December 2009 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1261914970' post='2026514']
Our priest instructed us to bow.

Of course, the church was overflowing (I was in a chair in the far right aisle), the 'gathering space' was also converted to hold people, and much of the assembly was standing room only.

I was tempted to tell someone who did not look familiar that I had season tickets, and they were sitting in my seat. But, Christian charity won out that day.



[/quote]

Cute! Of course it might just be that the person who took "your" seat was a non-Catholic friend or family member who just needed that one Mass to have a conversion of heart, so your act of Charity led to their salvation!

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='nunsense' date='27 December 2009 - 07:36 AM' timestamp='1261917364' post='2026518']
I don't know how to do the multiquote thing or I would have added your second post which says to forget it. I'm glad you added that. Otherwise I was about to go "Wow, what crawled into your underwear!" I have no idea how anything that I posted could have been construed as a criticism of anything you wrote since I was agreeing that the EF Mass is wonderful! I only said that it is great because there are rubrics AND there is time for private interpretation. This was a positive thing, not a criticism of you. So perhaps you are feeling a little sensitive right now about something else, which has spilled over onto this forum? I don't know. But I do know that all I wanted to say was how much I love attending an EF Mass. It was in response to the fact that you like it so much too. But I think I will think twice before responding to your posts in future now - or just try to choose my words a lot more carefully since I have no desire to get you all upset!
[/quote]No, you are fine... I misunderstood and was frustrated when I read the posts, I think...

If that doesn't work, would you accept that the milk was spiked?

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='28 December 2009 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1261925689' post='2026543']
No, you are fine... I misunderstood and was frustrated when I read the posts, I think...

If that doesn't work, would you accept that the milk was spiked?
[/quote]


Now you have made me laugh - thank you!

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='26 December 2009 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1261847560' post='2026239']
Heck, last evening at the Mass I attended at my parish, my wife and myself were the only ones standing when it came
to "May the Lord accept this sacrifice at your hands."

We stood there, for about 45 seconds before the rest of the church woke up and stood.

We have a lot of people visiting the town this time of year. Apparently most don't attend Mass at their own parishes,
other than on Christmas.


Jim
[/quote]

My brother served at a midnight Mass and he was the thurifier and at one point he incensed the congregation and the people in the front row looked really confused and didn't know what to do. Funny how people who go the least sometimes tend to end up sit in front.

[quote name='loveletslive' date='26 December 2009 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1261860289' post='2026315']
my priest reminded us that this is one of the 2 times during the year that we genuflect during the creed so everyone did, in general though most everyone bows. we are blessed with very orthodox priests so everything goes down as it should

however, at my newman center & the other local parish i am always one of the few people that bow at the appropriate time during the creed
[/quote]

Not surprised.

I went to an EF Mass so it wasn't an issue although honestly I am not sure what they did in the OF.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='27 December 2009 - 04:56 AM' timestamp='1261907816' post='2026506']
When either of you take the time to read what I wrote and directly find what I wrote that was wrong, then provide evidence and reason to why it is wrong, then I will take this seriously. Until then I am taking this as you are trying to inject something into what I wrote that simply is not there, for it was simply a personal comparison between the local Latin Mass Community here that I frequently attend and other Parishes I have been to.

Which I find it wonderful that I am finding people here so obsessed with rituals, which are arbitrary in nature as even the Church will admit, and so selfish that a child is offence enough to get upset. It reminds me of the story of our Lord's disciples turning the children away, what I appreciate about the Latin Mass Community is its welcoming, tolerant, accepting, and inclusive nature. Perhaps you could take a lesson from the kind of Charity that was espoused by our Lord and His Saints.

But then again maybe your right, everyone has to think and be exactly like you, and if their not they need to be expelled! Because if they do not follow a ritual that started in France from the French King, that happened almost a thousand years after the time of our Lord well certainly, EXPELL them. Because its not charity to accept people the way they are or love them regardless, it's erroneous to be patient and tolerant. I love this thinking, it reminds me of fundamentalists and why I avoid them at all costs.

Then again, I don't think your comments are quite relevant to what I wrote before, so I will take it as you misunderstood me and maybe I misunderstood you. Maybe I am just a bit annoyed by people who think the world is going to implode and split apart because I don't sing at the top of my lungs when I have laryngitis or stand when they do. Perhaps I am grouping you with ideas and people that have nothing to do with you, if that is the case please forgive me. Though I will admit, the children at the Latin Mass Community are very well behaved, but it is apart of the reason I appreciate it so much. Then again, me not being easily annoyed by other people, clearly something is wrong with me. EXPELL!!!
[/quote]

I can see that I offended you, and that was definitely not my intent. My only intent was to say that the rubrics ARE important, and that they are not arbitrary, and also that it is not charity to be apathetic about children's behavior at Mass. I am sorry for my rants and that my wording was not more clear.

[MIKolbe]

May God bless you with many, many children.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='27 December 2009 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1261958403' post='2026669']I can see that I offended you, and that was definitely not my intent. My only intent was to say that the rubrics ARE important, and that they are not arbitrary, and also that it is not charity to be apathetic about children's behavior at Mass. I am sorry for my rants and that my wording was not more clear.[/quote]You need to do more study then if you think that...

[Happy_Catholic]

Wow. Interesting how there are mass differences between countries, I have never heard this before.

But a lot of churches down in New Zealand have removed kneelers in an attempt do discourage people from kneeling during the consecration of all things!! not to mention removing the Tabanacle from the altar. Both things do not impress me.

However, it just means those who wish to kneel, do so on the floor. Frankly, I find the ideal of standing during the holiest part of the mass to be a tad disrespectful. Would we stand before God when we meet Him or fall to our knees?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='27 December 2009 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1261966076' post='2026709']
You need to do more study then if you think that...
[/quote]

Much of my independent study has been on the Liturgy. A good book to read is [i]Organic Development of the Liturgy[/i] by Alcuin Reid. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the preface, which is the most interesting part of the book, to be honest. Of course I can always further my study, and I am nowhere near a true liturgy scholar, but I know enough to say that the few postures which ARE prescribed are not arbitrary. Kneeling, which is the most important posture, has always represented complete submission to the Almighty. It is nowhere near arbitrary to say that it is necessary to kneel at key points during the Mass.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='28 December 2009 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1261980945' post='2026814']Much of my independent study has been on the Liturgy. A good book to read is [i]Organic Development of the Liturgy[/i] by Alcuin Reid. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the preface, which is the most interesting part of the book, to be honest. Of course I can always further my study, and I am nowhere near a true liturgy scholar, but I know enough to say that the few postures which ARE prescribed are not arbitrary. Kneeling, which is the most important posture, has always represented complete submission to the Almighty. It is nowhere near arbitrary to say that it is necessary to kneel at key points during the Mass.[/quote]Latin as beautiful and wonderful as it is in the Extraordinary Form, is an arbitrary language, even the fact that it was selected was at least in some degree arbitrary. We can look outside the Latin Rite to see that different religious languages, rituals, traditions, and even culture developed. Simply because we can identify form and even find Church authorities recommending or prescribing certain languages, rituals, or traditions it is still in some degree arbitrary.

"[i]Since there are some who kneel on Sunday and during the season of Pentecost, this holy synod decrees that, so that the same observances may be maintained in every diocese, [b][u]one should offer one's prayers to the Lord standing[/u][/b].[/i]" ([url="http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum01.htm"]First Council of Nicea[/url] - 325 CE) This is an arbitrary decision, what we may like to call “[i]pastoral[/i]”, which can be changed at whim. The Church if she so desired could reenact and abolish this decision, repeatedly with or without reason. We can find similar changes or “[i]developments[/i]”, if we do not like the word change, through the entire history of Catholicism.

To imagine that Catholicism is exactly the same in every dimension it was ten years ago, a hundred years ago, or a thousand years ago is ludicrous. If you want to argue that certain fundamental aspects of Catholicism remain fixed, even when changing remain much the same, thus calling it “[i]development[/i]”, fine! But if someone wants to stretch our imaginations so far as to avoid the idea that perhaps there is an arbitrary and human element to our Religion, I wonder what they are so fearful of?

Edited December 28, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[MissyP89]

No one knelt because we weren't told to do so; I think I was the only one that bowed besides the celebrant.

[MissyP89]

No one knelt because we weren't told to do so; I think I was the only one that bowed besides the celebrant.

[jeffpugh]

People just need to try, and it will become "normal". After V2, there seems to be more of a "sheep mentality" among parishioners, don't you think? They just blindly follow instead of observe and compute like Catholics of the past (imho).