Is Purgatory In Eternity

[Guest Shadow of the Almighty]

[quote name='nunsense' date='25 January 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1264480458' post='2044679']
If you can misunderstand me here, then how much easier it is for anyone to misunderstand what Jesus said all those years ago in a language that wasn't even the one use to write the scriptures? No, I don't believe that God can speak directly through the scriptures without some kinds of interpretation because even the Jews did this every week at the Temple. They would read the scripture and then explain it. Jesus Himself did this, reading from Isaiah and then pronouncing that He was fulfilling this. So interpretation of the scriptures is not new. After the resurrection, Jesus spent time with his disciples, explaining the scriptures to them. So you contention that the Bible is enough, isn't even held up by the Bible itself which shows Our Lord teaching "from" the scriptures not just handing a book to them to read for themselves.

I just don't happen to believe in your interpretation of them.

And the arrogant comment was simply a response to your post that there is no Purgatory, since that wasn't the question set before everyone on this thread, and yet you told me it was "sad" that I had to ask other Catholics about something that is a Catholic teaching? That statement and the word "sad" just seems a little arrogant on your part still.

As for using the online technology to look up Bible quotes - they still have to be interpreted... and I just don't see things the way you do. For me the Catholic Church is everything she claims to be, hence the truth is not arrogant. She is the one true holy Catholic and apostolic Church. End of story.
[/quote]


As to me budding in with my opinion, you specifically stated in the very first post, QUOTE:

"I am interested in what the Church says about this of course, but also what people think"

I just registered on this site and told you what I thought, thank you very much.

Moreover, absolutely no one denies the ministry of teachers which have been ordained per 1 Cor 12....so there is no argument about the need to learn from others, as I previously indicated that we are all on different levels of learning. I will remind you that Protestants have bombarded the world with their glorious commentaries on the Bible which must number in the thousands, and the Roman Catholic Church has not "officially" produced EVEN ONE!

Furthermore, if it alright for YOU to claim that the Roman Catholic Church is everything she claims to be, it is equally legitimate [i]"for me"[/i] to claim she is not. End of story.

[Vincent Vega]

Wait wait wait...
Misunderstanding of the quote function...
Gratuitous usage of capitalization...and italics...
Using "trendy" slang for Catholic terms, such as "Tranz"...


Can I smell a storm brewing? Or, perhaps more accurately...stopping?

Edited January 26, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Shadow of the Almighty' date='25 January 2010 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1264481336' post='2044693']
Furthermore, if it alright for YOU to claim that the Roman Catholic Church is everything she claims to be, it is equally legitimate [i]"for me"[/i] to claim she is not. End of story.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say it is alright, but it is your right. This Debate Table could get a lot more interesting.

[Selah]

[quote]Can I smell a storm brewing? Or, perhaps more accurately...stopping? [/quote]

Nah, it can't be Stormstopper. This guy is too calm and polite. (That's a compliment, not an insult! )

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Selah' date='25 January 2010 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1264481806' post='2044703']
Nah, it can't be Stormstopper. This guy is too calm and polite. (That's a compliment, not an insult! )
[/quote]
We'll see.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='25 January 2010 - 11:53 PM' timestamp='1264481632' post='2044698']
Wait wait wait...
Misunderstanding of the quote function...
Gratuitous usage of capitalization...and italics...
Using "trendy" slang for Catholic terms, such as "Tranz"...


Can I smell a storm brewing? Or, perhaps more accurately...stopping?
[/quote]

You know what, you may be on to something. I do recall Storm making some ridiculous comment about my sweet suns.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='26 January 2010 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1264482271' post='2044710']
You know what, you may be on to something. I do recall Storm making some ridiculous comment about my sweet suns.
[/quote]
In order to spare the thread, I'll move the inquisition HQ here:
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=102292&pid=2044711&st=0&#entry2044711

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Shadow of the Almighty' date='26 January 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1264481336' post='2044693']
As to me budding in with my opinion, you specifically stated in the very first post, QUOTE:

"I am interested in what the Church says about this of course, but also what people think"

I just registered on this site and told you what I thought, thank you very much.

Moreover, absolutely no one denies the ministry of teachers which have been ordained per 1 Cor 12....so there is no argument about the need to learn from others, as I previously indicated that we are all on different levels of learning. I will remind you that Protestants have bombarded the world with their glorious commentaries on the Bible which must number in the thousands, and the Roman Catholic Church has not "officially" produced EVEN ONE!

Furthermore, if it alright for YOU to claim that the Roman Catholic Church is everything she claims to be, it is equally legitimate [i]"for me"[/i] to claim she is not. End of story.
[/quote]

See, once again you misinterpret what I said, so how can any of your Bible interpretations be relied upon?

When I said that I was interested in what people think, one should be able to assume from the title of the thread and the intro to Catholics especially that what I wanted to hear about was whether or not people think that Purgatory exists within time or in eternity - no time. You interpreted this to mean that I wanted your (incorrect) opinion that Purgatory does not exist. I did not ask this question, but if you want to start another thread debating the existence of Purgatory, I can see where that could be quite lively as well.

If you want to address this thread however, then address the topic - but since you don't believe Purgatory exists, I think that you might want to wait this one out?? Time, no time?? hmmm Tough to answer if it doesn't exist at all. See our problem here?

[Guest Shadow of the Almighty]

[quote name='Selah' date='25 January 2010 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1264480602' post='2044682']

I find that hard to believe, for she would have never said any such thing about the Eucharist being a "symbol" had she bothered to read the quotes of the Church Fathers, the Didache, and other Apostolic works that clearly indicate that the Church Fathers believed in the Real Presence.



And you are leaning on the shoulders of the Reformers.



Jesus is the Word of God, not the Bible. And, my foundation is not on a book, but on Christ, and the Church he founded when he spoke to St. Peter in Matthew 16:18: You are Peter, and upon this Rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against them.

Your theology is based upon Sola Scriptura, which was never believed by any of the early Christians. My foundation is on the Church, which has been the foundation of the early Christians since 33 AD.



As I am an Eastern Catholic, my views on Purgatory are different. But for the sake of argument, might I ask: do you still sin?
[/quote]


That I might continue to sin is certainly no argument for a place of purification outside of the blood of Christ. I am "in Christ" (a phrase used over 20 times in the N.T.), and because of that, I need not fear a thing as I completely trust in the horizon-filling granduer of His work on the cross ALONE to save me.

I will answer your question once in regard to another topic, but it appears others get annoyed when the subject changes.

Since you like to refer to the early fathers and don't like the idea that your foundation is on a book, I might remind you what Irenaeus said:
He referred to the Scriptures as "the ground and pillar of our faith" (Against Heresies, 3.1.1). So un-Roman Catholic of him, wouldn't you say?

So intimately does God equate Himself with the Scriptures, that they He and them would appear to be virtually indistinguishable. He is even described as using that very name! "For the Scripture saith unto Pharoah, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up..." (Rms 9:17). Jesus in His person, and His word given to us, are two sides of the same coin.

Next, is the charge that "no one" ever believed in SS. On the contrary, everybody did. Every single ECF went out of their way to find their theology in SCRIPTURE ALONE. And I have in my possession, as a matter of fact, every single high and lofty quote the ECF's have made as it regards to Scripture. Now what you will NOT find, are the ECF's looking to the Roman Catholic "three-fold" idea of revelation contained in the Magisterium, Tradition and Scripture. No, not anywhere! Your claims are all nothing but hot air.

I will only respond to your assertion that the Didache was allegedly Roman Catholic in content. We read,

"Assemble on the Lord's day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, `Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations' [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

This document does not include any indication of the Mass as a sacrifice in any way indicative of Roman Catholic teaching. There is not the slightest indication that the elements are transformed into the body of Christ, or that it is a proptitiatory sacrifice that is the fount and apex of what the Catholic Church has determined is an acceptable offering to God. Nothing of this is even alluded to in The Didache. Furthermore, the use of the phrase "so that YOUR sacrifice may be a pure one" seems logically to refer to the Eucharist as the BELIEVER'S sacrifice, reflecting the idea of self-giving through an offering of praise and thanksgiving for the finished work of Christ. This is what the Bible says, like it or not. We offer the "sacrifice of praise" (Heb 13:15), the "sacrifice of Joy" (Ps 27:6), The "sacrifice of thanksgiving" (Ps 116:17) and ourselves as a "living sacrifice" (Rms 12:1). Irenaeus agrees also as I will show below.

Re: the word "sacrifice"; you are not even considering the word in a general or biblical sense, but are demanding it be referring to the Mass! You are trying to squeeze The Didache's quote of Malachi 1:11 like a dishrag to imply a connection to the Mass, but it will never work, biblically or logically. The word used there in my KJV is "offering", and in context, it is being used of a grain or food offering---which was a voluntary act of gratitude and NOT a sacrifice for sin (Lev 6:14-23). The Israelities were offering defiled sacrifices.
Roman Catholics typically the Didache quote of Malachi to imagine that this was a prohecy of the Mass when they read, "From the rising of the sun, even unto the going down of the same, my name shall be great among the Gentiles, and in every place incense shall be offered....." (CCC #2643). Suffice it to say that since the Mass came into vogue centuries ago, Malachi 1:11 is not a prophecy that can be looked at as having been fulfilled in the Mass since the Lord's name is the #1 curse word of choice among Gentiles of today. He must be referring to an event still in the future following the second coming of Christ, at which time His name will indeed be great among "every nation, tribe and tongue" (Rev 5:9). Irenaeus also referred to Malachi's prophecy and characterized the Eucharist as a thank-offering. He maintained that the real sacrifice intended were the prayers of true believers which came from pure hearts undefiled by sin (The Writings of Irenaeus, by Roberts & Donaldson, p. 430, in Against Heresies IV.17.5-6).

[Saecula]

Purgatory would be subject to what Aquinas called "Aeviternity":

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm#article5

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Saecula' date='26 January 2010 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1264484494' post='2044763']
Purgatory would be subject to what Aquinas called "Aeviternity":

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm#article5
[/quote]



Finally back on track again. Yayy Aquinas!

[Lil Red]

+JMJ+
[quote name='Saint Therese' date='18 January 2010 - 07:11 AM' timestamp='1263823885' post='2039615']If I die and find myself in purgatory I'll be like, "YES!! I made it!!!!".[/quote]
me too!

[quote name='reyb' date='19 January 2010 - 05:57 AM' timestamp='1263905843' post='2040122']....but still, there is this element of time. So, how long do you think you will be in purgatory?[/quote]
however long it takes to be purified so that i may enter into God's presence.

[quote name='nunsense' date='19 January 2010 - 06:04 AM' timestamp='1263906256' post='2040125']I asked God if I could do my Purgatory here on Earth. Do you think that was a wise move?? [/quote]
hmmm, good question.

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' date='20 January 2010 - 10:54 AM' timestamp='1264010078' post='2040839']Just remember the 4 final things: Death Judgement Heaven and hell. Purgatory is just a waypoint on the way to Heaven. Do not dwell on it, but rather keep your eyes and heart fixed on the prize - eternal joy with Christ in Heaven.[/quote]
nice.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Shadow of the Almighty' date='25 January 2010 - 08:51 PM' timestamp='1264477877' post='2044649']
If you wish to discuss this issue on another thread, I would be willing to do so, as Tranz is off topic.
[/quote]
+JMJ+
if you want to have a [u][b]civil[/b][/u] dialog, we welcome that. i stress "civil". name calling our beliefs is a great way for you not to be taken seriously. i, for one, will encourage people to ignore you if you persist in being so disrespectful. that is no way to 'win' anyone to your 'side'.

as a moderator, i would call your attention to the phorum guidelines:
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

God bless, and welcome to phatmass!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='26 January 2010 - 01:12 AM' timestamp='1264486359' post='2044801']
God bless, and welcome to phatmass!
[/quote]
You say that like he's new.
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=102292&st=0
Read to the end. It's worth your while.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='25 January 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1264486508' post='2044803']
You say that like he's new.
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=102292&st=0
Read to the end. It's worth your while.
[/quote]
+JMJ+

[reyb]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='25 January 2010 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1264475105' post='2044617']
Yes, that is correct. Transubstantiation is an article of faith, not of science, because the substance of a thing is discernable to the senses.
[/quote]

Let us start another topic on this issue (The Presence of Jesus Christ on the Eucharist).

[reyb]

But I have a question regarding this offering or sacrifice which (you said) is 'on going and complete' in heaven. If this argument is correct. Why it is written in Luke 22:14-18 that Jesus will not eat it and drink it.....

Luke 22:14-18

[color="#FF0000"]14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, [b]I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." [/b]

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you [b]I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." [/b] [/color]
NIV

Edited January 26, 2010 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='21 January 2010 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1264134471' post='2042032']
No. There is no time in eternity. There is only one sacrifice that never ends. It is both [b]"ongoing and completed" at the same time[/b]. Finished and beginning and in the middle of the sacrifice. It is a sacrifice that simply "is", like if the "Passion of the Christ" movie was paused on the TV screen for all eternity. Actually, that's a bad example. It's more like if the "Passion of the Christ" were sped up really fast, so that you could watch the whole movie in less than a second ... less than a millisecond ... and played over and over again for all time. But even in that example, there is still a distinguishable beginning, middle, and end, and so it is not perfect.
[/quote]

Can you please explain this 'on going and complete' sacrifice you are telling in the light of the scriptures?

[TIWW]

From time to time I come to this forum and read what folks are talking and opining about. I often come away with a huge sense of dread and sadness.
Usually, it stems from the fact that people are so sanctimonious and punctilious, but so missing the big picture. Please do not think I put this forth to argue with anyone or what they "believe," we each have our personal belief system of faith. I once had an assignment is a Spirituality class, to write a 2 page paper on "What does it mean to be Spiritual or what are my Spiritual beliefs? It was one of the most difficult things I ever had to do, to order my thoughts, then put them down on paper in 2 pages. I hightly recommend it . . it taught me a lot about myself and where I had come from in my 60 years of life in my Catholic Faith, and my joureny with God.

As CATHOLICS, we are taught from the very beginning the two great commandments:
Love the Lord your God, with your whole mind, whole heart and whole strength,
And Love your neighbor as yourself.

Coming to this topic from another perspective, as a cradle Catholic, and nurse who has worked with the dying and had an interest in the afterlife for over 30 years, I have not only had many personal experiences, but shared experiences of those who were drifting between this world and the next, I do not think there is such a “place” as purgatory, probably more a “state” of being after death. In the 1950's,growing up in the Catholic school system we were taught all kinds of things, among them the idea of "Purgatory" being a place where one's soul spent time , when it was deemed not ready for "heaven." We were also taught that our Lutheran neighbors were going to "hell." Frankly, that just seemed pure nonsense to me, and I wonder if those who have now converted to the Catholic faith now think that their Lutheran or Methodist friends are doomed to hell.

That philosophy does not bode well for our protestant brethren, and the other of the World’s great Religions, all whose paths lead to God, within their own Cultures. That God would spread His people around the Globe , but only a handful would be specifically chosen, and allowed through the pearly gates, simply flies in the face of reason, not to mention what it says about an All Loving and All Powerful, All Knowing God and His Creation.

When the folks I am with who are dyeing begin to talk to their loved ones who have preceded them in death, I know they have only a couple of days to be bound to this earth, and that soon, they will join their families, friends and the saints who have gone before us, and soon see their Divine Creator, fact to face.
We are created body, mind and Spirit/Soul. ( I’ll not go on about the difference of Soul and Spirit now ) At the time of death we shed our earthly bodies, and the soul and substance of what is US, continues in time and place, but we have access to the world of heaven, the Spirit world, where our angels and other heavenly bodies help us on our journeys. Our soul may need to experience more, to “go to School” to be able to become “ready,” for the Presence of God. One person described it as a psychological loss, and distance, if we have lived a life of selfishness, greed and sin. If we have not lived lives based on the virtues of love, giving and compassion, etc., we must learn love, learn giving and learn compassion, before we approach the “Throne of God.” An example being Hitler, whose life certainly lacked those virtues, and before he would ever look on the face of the Beloved, he may need to spend several eternities, out of sight of the ONE FOR WHOM OUR SOUL YEARNS, before his soul has been transformed. As opposed to Mother Theresa, whose soul was in transformation all throughout her life, and her readiness for the Face of her beloved was entirely different, than that of other more obvious “sinners”
As a faithful Catholic, with a rich and rewarding prayer life and faith community, I can not get caught up with the non essentials. There are many wonderful books out there for those who might be interested, about “life after life.” And actually, that is the title of a book on the subject by Moody. But for me, the book I have found most helpful, informative and reassuring is the book titled Witness from Beyond. by Ruth Mattson Taylor. Her Father, A.D. Mattson, was a Lutheran Pastor and professor in a Midwestern college, who had a heart attack, died and came back to report what life in the Spirit was like for him. I now share this book with families who have lost loved ones, especially children, to help them cope with the loss, but to assure them that, “we do not die,” except to this bodily world.
If you have stayed with this response thus far, I must say that I see no reason to hold on to the Catholic concept of purgatory for myself. But for those who feel that this is somehow important in their belief system, it may serve a purpose. Personally, I believe, as Therese’ said. “IN THE END, WE SHALL BE EXAMINED ON LOVE.”

Only God can judge our soul’s and how well we have lived, We may be the most puffed up and well informed Catholic, following a particular punctilious Rule or Way of life, written by some Saint or Religious figure, wearing some form of clothing that sets us apart, but if we fail in the Great Commandment of LOVE, . . we fail, not only ourselves, but those with whom we live and work, and surely we fail God.

[Nihil Obstat]

Hi TIWW.
As a Catholic I cannot accept the idea that the paths of all religions lead to God. To say so would be indifferentist and deny the basis of our Church.