What Species Was Adam & Eve?

[Veridicus]

Maybe the Neanderthals were Nephilim.

In all seriousness tho I haven't read that the Neanderthals were biologically incapable of mating with Cro-Magnan man. It is entirely possible that this argument is wholly superfluous. They may have simply been another form of soul-endowed early human who existed and died out. cultures have come and gone. Genes have come and gone. Neanderthal just represents a larger chunk of genes disappearing...to be human isn't necessarily to be what modern humans define as 'homo sapien sapien'. I don't think its that big of a deal.

[Winchester]

Perhaps they never fell.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Selah' date='19 January 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1263928784' post='2040231']
Thank you. I've just had people on here tell me something was church teaching, and it ended up being based solely on their own opinions.

I have to ask though: why is it important that Adam and Eve were real people? Why can it not be seen as a story, told by the ancients of how the universe came to be, and how they believe sin entered into the world?
[/quote]

There had to a be a real Adam. Romans 5.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Winchester' date='20 January 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1264006500' post='2040780']
Perhaps they never fell.
[/quote]

According to Jean M. Auel...

[KnightofChrist]

Adam and Eve were human beings who actually existed. They did indeed live in paradise and fell from grace, Genesis is a true story. It is heresy to believe otherwise.

Edited January 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[CatherineM]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='20 January 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1264008496' post='2040807']
Adam and Eve were human beings who actually existed. They did indeed live in paradise and fell from grace, Genesis is a true story. It is heresy to believe otherwise.
[/quote]
Genesis is truth, but it isn't history or science. I guess I'm a heretic, but I'm in good company since the Pope teaches the same truth.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='19 January 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1263927940' post='2040219']Yes, of course.

Pope Pius XII, [i]Humani Generis[/i], paragraph #37:

[indent]
When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own.
[/indent]

And the Catechism, paragraph #390:

[indent]
The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.
[/indent]

Please confer with the following article from Catholic Answers, which has imprimatur:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp[/quote][quote][url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html"][b]Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God[/b][/url] (2004)
[b]43[/b]. "Every individual human being as well as the whole human community are created in the image of God. In its original unity – of [u]which Adam is the symbol[/u] – the human race is made in the image of the divine Trinity..."

[b]70[/b]. "With respect to the immediate creation of the human soul, Catholic theology affirms that particular actions of God bring about effects that transcend the capacity of created causes acting according to their natures. The appeal to divine causality to account for genuinely causal as distinct from merely explanatory gaps does not insert divine agency to fill in the “gaps” in human scientific understanding (thus giving rise to the so-called "God of the gaps”). The structures of the world can be seen as open to non-disruptive divine action in directly causing events in the world. Catholic theology affirms that that the emergence of the first members of the human species ([b][u]whether as individuals or in populations[/u][/b]) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention..."
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith"]Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/url] - [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI"]Cardinal Ratzinger[/url] (1981-2005) writing to the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Theological_Commission"]International Theological Commission[/url][/quote]It appears that the now [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI"]Pope Benedict XVI[/url] (2005-2010 present) suggested that it is compatible with the Catholic faith to propose that the story of Adam and Eve is mythical, perhaps allegorical. Since the former opinion suggested by the then [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII"]Pope Pius XII[/url] (1939-1958) was not binding on the faithful, it seems that as it was a Catholic’s liberty and freedom to reject the former opinion of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII"]Pope Pius XII[/url] (1939-1958) then, and it still is now, prehaps even more so.

Moreover with [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Poupard"]Cardinal Paul Poupard[/url] (1985-2007) suggesting to us, "the faithful have the [b]obligation[/b] to listen to that which [u]secular modern science has to offer[/u], just as we ask that knowledge of the faith be taken in consideration as an expert voice in humanity... we also know the dangers of a religion that severs its links with reason and becomes prey to fundamentalism." Catholicism, any religious belief or devotion, can become a fundamentalism. In my personal opinion, fundamentalism is dangerous to both free society and individuals.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Selah]

[quote]Genesis is truth, but it isn't history or science. I guess I'm a heretic, but I'm in good company since the Pope teaches the same truth. [/quote]

^^^ This.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='20 January 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1264022189' post='2040989']
It appears that the now Pope Benedict XVI suggested that it is compatible with the Catholic faith to propose that the story of Adam and Eve is mythical, perhaps allegorical.[/quote]

So your saying we could have started out with 4 people, and not 2? I'm not trying to be facetious, but what part of Adam and Eve could be mythical?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='20 January 2010 - 01:18 PM' timestamp='1264011524' post='2040860']
Genesis is truth, but it isn't history or science. I guess I'm a heretic, but I'm in good company since the Pope teaches the same truth.
[/quote]

Did I say it was science? No. Not historical? Not completely non-historical, the fall was an actual event that happened in history, Adam and Eve or our first parents actually existed in the past ie history, they actually lived in paradise, and actually fell from grace. Historical events recorded in Genesis. To say that our first parents, one man and one woman, did not really exist, with the man being created first is heretical, to say they did not actually fall from grace is heretical.

Edited January 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='20 January 2010 - 04:27 PM' timestamp='1264022864' post='2041000']So your saying we could have started out with 4 people, and not 2? I'm not trying to be facetious, but what part of Adam and Eve could be mythical?[/quote]Based on my post, what do you think?

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='20 January 2010 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1264023806' post='2041016']
Based on my post, what do you think?
[/quote]

Quite honestly, I'm a bit lost and I'm going to need to re-read some stuff. I apologize for intruding without thinking it through.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote]I had a theology professor who told me that Adam and Eve were just myths, and that the rest of Genesis was all just legends...is that what the Church teaches?


Absolutely not! The Church has always taught that Adam and Eve were real people and were the first human beings from whom all other human beings are descended. In 1950, Pope Pius XII, in Paragraph 37 of an encyclical entitled Humani Generis, states, "...the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from [Adam] as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents." In other words, the Church teaches that all humanity descended from Adam and Eve. They had to be real for that to happen.

Paragraph #38, states: "This [encyclical], in fact, clearly points out that the first eleven chapters of Genesis...do nevertheless pertain to history in a true sense..." Again, Adam and Eve are not myths, and the rest of Genesis is not legend. They are history in a "true sense."

Paragraph #39: "Therefore, whatever of the popular narrations have been inserted into the Sacred Scriptures must in no way be considered on a par with myths or other such things..." Can it be stated any clearer than that?

And listen to what the Catechism says, Paragraph #375, "The Church...teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve..." No mention of a myth here.

Paragraph #404: "By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin. Someone please tell me, how do myths commit personal sins?
Adam and Eve are not myths. Genesis does not contain myth or legend. That is Church teaching. Challenge anyone, who teaches differently, to produce their sources from a magisterial document. They cannot do it. They can, however, produce countless books and articles by "theologians". Not good enough.

Source: [url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/apologetics/two_minute#6"]biblechristiansociety.com[/url][/quote]

[Selah]

KoC, why is it important that we believe Adam and Eve to be real, actual people?

Don't answer "Cuz it's heresy." Please give a real answer. WHY is it heresy?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Selah' date='20 January 2010 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1264025210' post='2041035']
KoC, why is it important that we believe Adam and Eve to be real, actual people?

Don't answer "Cuz it's heresy." Please give a real answer. WHY is it heresy?
[/quote]

Because this is what the Church teaches and has always taught. Christ's purpose coming to earth and dieing for our sins is an direct response to the fall of our first parents Adam and Eve. If they did not in fact exist the fall, nor Original Sin exist thus no purpose for Christ to come to earth and be crucified, which would be a logical reason to also doubt His existence. If you read the post 33 you can see where just some of the Church's teaching on this matter.

Edited January 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Mr.Cat]

KnightofChrist, "[i][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html"]Humani Generis[/url][/i]" (1950) was not a definitive definition of faith, thus we can safely assume that it was either his personal or theological opinion; which is [u][b]not[/b][/u] teaching or binding upon the faithful, thus can be changed at the whims of the Church, and the faithful reserve their liberty and freedom to accept or reject such an opinion.

Since it is up to the Church to decide which statements are definitive definitions and how, personal interjection are not welcome when claiming to represent the Catholic Church or her teachings. Moreover because it appears that there is no major case for this being a definitive definition of the faith from Catholic theologians, in fact we have the former Prefect of the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith"]Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI"]Cardinal Ratzinger[/url] (1981-2005) suggesting indirectly that "[i][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html"]Humani Generis[/url][/i]" (1950) is [b][u]not[/u][/b] a definitive definition of the faith.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Mr.CatholicCat

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='20 January 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1264025756' post='2041043']
KnightofChrist, "[i][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html"]Humani Generis[/url][/i]" (1950) was not a definitive definition of faith, thus we can safely assume that it was either his personal or theological opinion; which is not teaching or binding upon the faithful, thus can be changed at the whims of the Church, and the faithful reserve their liberty and freedom to accept or reject such an opinion.

Since it is up to the Church to decide which statements are definitive definitions and how, personal interjection are not welcome when claiming to represent the Catholic Church or her teachings. Moreover because it appears that there is no major case for this being a definitive definition of the faith from Catholic theologians, in fact we have the former Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith Cardinal Ratzinger (1981-2005) suggesting indirectly that "[i][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html"]Humani Generis[/url][/i]" (1950) is not a definitive definition of the faith.
[/quote]

Since the Church has taught for 2,000 years in various documents that Adam and Eve were two persons our first parents, that becomes binding teaching which the Faithful are required to believe.

Liberal Catholicism is an cancer on the faithful, to doubt the existence of Adam and Eve or two first parents is an offense to 2,000 years of binding Church teaching. Which clearly teaches that Adam and Eve existed and all of mankind come from them.

Also the CCC is binding on the faithful. The writings of Cardinal Ratzinger on this matter are not.

Edited January 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Selah]

[quote]The writings of Cardinal Ratzinger on this matter are not[/quote]

He is our Pope!


[quote]Because this is what the Church teaches and has always taught. Christ's purpose coming to earth and dieing for our sins is an direct response to the fall of our first parents Adam and Eve. If they did not in fact exist the fall, nor Original Sin exist thus no purpose for Christ to come to earth and be crucified, which would be a logical reason to also doubt His existence. If you read the post 33 you can see where just some of the Church's teaching on this matter. [/quote]

But I have trouble believing it myself. There is no historical evidence for their existence. How do you know that they were not simply representations of human beings who sinned of their own accord? (I'm just trying to understand this)

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Selah' date='20 January 2010 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1264026267' post='2041049']
He is our Pope![/quote]

He was not then, and was speaking as a theologian. And so was Pope Pius XII who spoke much more firmly and clearly on this matter.


[quote name='Selah' date='20 January 2010 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1264026267' post='2041049']But I have trouble believing it myself. There is no historical evidence for their existence. How do you know that they were not simply representations of human beings who sinned of their own accord? (I'm just trying to understand this)
[/quote]


Here is some more info that may help.


[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp"][b]Real History[/b][/url]


The argument is that all of this is real history, it is simply ordered topically rather than chronologically, and the ancient audience of Genesis, it is argued, would have understood it as such.

Even if Genesis 1 records God’s work in a topical fashion, it still records God’s work—things God really did.

The Catechism explains that "Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine ‘work,’ concluded by the ‘rest’ of the seventh day" (CCC 337), but "nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God’s word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history is rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun" (CCC 338).

It is impossible to dismiss the events of Genesis 1 as a mere legend. They are accounts of real history, even if they are told in a style of historical writing that Westerners do not typically use.



[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp"][b]Adam and Eve: Real People[/b][/url]


It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: "When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own" (Humani Generis 37).

The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents" (CCC 390).

Edited January 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='20 January 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1264025939' post='2041045'] Since the Church has taught for 2,000 years in various documents that Adam and Eve were two persons our first parents, that becomes binding teaching which the Faithful are required to believe[/quote]Unless you have an explicit and direct statement from the Church that binds this upon the faithful for belief, your case fails. You are not the arbiter for the Catholic Church or faith, if you wish to claim this as your personal opinion that is another matter. If you wish to oppose the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that is your choice and problem, when the Inquisition comes we will know whose door to knock on first.[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='20 January 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1264025939' post='2041045']Liberal Catholicism is an cancer on the faithful, to doubt the existence of Adam and Eve or two first parents is an offense to 2,000 years of binding Church teaching. Which clearly teaches that Adam and Eve existed and all of mankind come from them.[/quote]The danger to the Church and faithful is disobedient Catholics who decide for themselves what they will believe or will not believe, this is exactly what you are doing. Instead of addressing the fact that you are disobediently misrepresenting the Church, you just call people who oppose you “liberal” and “cancerous”. Unless you can support your case with the only authority that can tell us what is binding on the faithful or not, the Church, your case simply fails.[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='20 January 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1264025939' post='2041045'] Also the CCC is binding on the faithful. The writings of Cardinal Ratzinger on this matter are not.[/quote]No the "[i]Catechism of Pope John II[/i]" is not binding upon the faithful, while the statements of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith Cardinal Ratzinger concerning faith and morals are quite relevant to the faithful. I suppose it makes it easier to ignore the Church when one can pretend you’re fighting for the righteous cause, but the fact is this is a moot matter anymore, unless you have evidence from the Church or empirical scientific evidence... this is merely your personal belief or opinion.