Make A Marriage Poll?

[southern california guy]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='22 January 2010 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1264221554' post='2042644']
Then what?
[/quote]

I don't know..

[tinytherese]

[quote name='southern california guy' date='22 January 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1264221042' post='2042642']

I agree that there are valid cases for annulments (The person who marries is old and senile, mentally insane, severely mentally retarded). But not a single one of the people -- who I personally know -- that got them, fit any of these. I can't condemn them -- since that's gods power alone. But I can be critical.

Maybe the Priest should ask questions like "Do you take this woman to be your lawful wedded wife -- and do you [b]REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY[/b] mean it?

[/quote]

When it comes to whether or not someone deserved to get an annulment or not isn't up to your average Joe Catholic, but those who have studied canon law, which governs whether or not they qualify for one. Its an investigation, just like other cases brought up in court. And not as many people receive annulments as you might think. Plenty of people get turned down and become very bitter, some even leave the Church because of it. This certainly doesn't justify them abandoning the faith and this also doesn't mean that annulments should be given to everyone who asks for one, because we feel bad for them.

F e a t u r e A r t i c l e


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Isn't It Just a Catholic Rubber-Stamp on a Divorce?

What Really Happens When Someone Petitions for an "Annulment"

By Pete Vere and Jacqueline Rapp


What does the Church do when a couple—or at least half of it—says "I do" but means "I don’t"? It seems to many people that with a little sleight of hand and a lot of money, the couple can be given a kind of do-over. But in reality, obtaining a declaration of nullity (annulment is a misnomer; the Church cannot "annul" a marriage) involves a rigorous legal procedure that gives that couple the opportunity to prove to a tribunal that a real marriage never took place.

Marriage enjoys "the favor of the law," according to canon 1060 of the Code of Canon Law. In everyday language, this means that the Church assumes that a marriage is valid unless it is proven not to be. The wisdom behind canon 1060 is clear: Since no marriage is perfect, people may have occasional doubts about their marriages. But it is one thing to allege the invalidity of a marriage; it is quite another to prove it—as a person seeking a declaration of nullity must do.

The Church cannot actually nullify a marriage, despite the language we use to talk about the process. When a couple or individual petitions for an "annulment," the tribunal process seeks to uncover whether a valid marriage—as the Church understands it—came into being when the couple exchanged their vows or whether the husband or wife did not fully consent to the proposed marriage. Through an arduous legal process, the tribunal determines whether to overturn the presumption of validity of a marriage before them.

The process is strenuous: It means putting the whole history of a failed union into words, dredging up painful memories, and doing a hard self-examination. Moreover, the whole process for many is misunderstood or shrouded in mystery. Indeed, many good Catholics flinch from seeking justifiable declarations of nullity. Yet the process exists to help those very people.



How the Process Begins


The process opens when a husband or wife contacts the local parish or tribunal and shares preliminary information about the marriage. The petitioner (the spouse who initiates the process) provides baptismal certificates, the marriage license, and a divorce decree (if there is one). The baptismal certificate gives the faith background of the couple, the marriage license establishes the age of the individuals at the time of their wedding, and a divorce decree indicates that there is little hope of reconciliation. After a lengthy and probing interview, a petition is drafted that accuses the marriage of invalidity and states why the petitioner believes it to be invalid. The tribunal understands that most Catholics are not experts in canon law. Someone will usually help the petitioner narrow down the grounds and draft the petition. That petition is then submitted to the tribunal.

The petition rises and falls on the question of consent. Marriage consent breaks down into three areas: capacity, knowledge, and will. For example, a severe alcoholic lacks the capacity to consent to marriage if his alcoholism prevents him from carrying out the natural obligations of marriage. Similarly, a marriage is invalid if a woman does not know that children come about through some sort of sexual cooperation between husband and wife. These days, though, spouses are more likely to invalidate their wedding vows by willfully excluding the possibility of children.


The Jurisdiction of the Tribunal


The judicial vicar (see "People in the Process") receives the petition. If he determines that there is no reasonable hope of reconciliation between the parties, he then decides whether his particular tribunal is competent to hear the case. There are only three possible tribunals: the one in the diocese in which the marriage was contracted, the one where the petitioner or the former spouse resides, or, lastly, the one where the most proofs are present. A proof can be anything from a witness to old love letters. In addition, the judicial vicar of the former spouse’s diocese must give his consent to the case proceeding in another tribunal. He may do so only after consulting with the respondent. These conditions prevent petitioners from "shopping" for a tribunal willing to rule in their favor. If the tribunal appealed to is not deemed competent to hear a case, its decision is automatically null.


The Respondent’s Role


If the tribunal accepts the petition, that tribunal becomes known as the court of first instance. (All cases alleging the invalidity of a sacrament are judged at least twice.) The judicial vicar always contacts the former spouse, or respondent, and invites him or her to respond within fifteen days. The fifteen-day time limit ensures that the former spouse cannot needlessly delay the petition.

The respondent may refuse to be involved, or the marriage may have taken place so long ago that the respondent can no longer be found. The process can continue, though, provided the tribunal can demonstrate a good faith effort to find and involve the respondent. A violation of the respondent’s right to participate invalidates the process. If the process might lead to a dangerous situation between the former spouses, the tribunal does all it can within the bounds of the law to protect both spouses.

The judicial vicar then issues a decree called the joinder of the issues, which weighs the preliminary information, specifies the grounds to be investigated, and identifies the party against whom the grounds are alleged. There is no such thing as a no-fault declaration of invalidity: If a marriage is invalid, it is because there is a problem with the consent of either the petitioner or the respondent or both.


The Testimony of the Spouses and Witnesses


The petitioner and the respondent are then asked to give formal testimony. This testimony is sometimes given in person, sometimes in written form, and sometimes a combination of both, depending on the procedure of the particular tribunal. In addition to covering the period the couple were married, the testimony also covers the family background of each party and the events leading up to the marriage. Because a declaration of invalidity states that a marriage was invalid from the beginning, the tribunal must ask questions about each person’s state prior to the marriage, including childhood and upbringing. Knowing what sort of marriages the parties experienced firsthand—usually those of their parents and grandparents—gives the tribunal a good indication of what the parties anticipated marriage to be.

The tribunal asks questions about prior dating relationships and the couple’s courtship, engagement, and wedding. This helps the judges determine if the couple carried unresolved issues or negative behavior patterns into their marriage.

Each party then presents witnesses and shares other proofs with the tribunal. The documentation and evidence (called the acts), along with the proceedings of the case, are then published. Both parties and their advocates are invited to review and respond to this publication of the acts. The advocates then submit a brief in which they argue in favor of the party they represent. The advocates’ briefs, along with the other acts, are given to the defender of the bond, who reviews them and composes a brief presenting reasonable arguments in favor of the marriage’s presumed validity.


The First and Second Instance Judgments


The case then proceeds to the judge(s) for first instance judgment. Affirmative or negative, the reasons for the decision are written down and carefully explained. Even if the petition receives an affirmative decision at first instance, the petitioner is not yet free to marry. The validity of the first marriage is still intact until the second instance tribunal ratifies the first decision. If second instance confirms the affirmative decision, if there are no appeals to the Roman Rota (one of two supreme courts of the Church in Rome), and if no prohibitions or restrictions are attached to the sentence, then each party is free to marry.


Prohibitions and Restrictions


Sometimes the tribunal determines that the problems that led to the failure of the marriage are still present and of a serious nature, and consequently a prohibition or restriction is placed on any future marriage. This usually means that a future marriage is delayed until certain conditions have been met by the parties concerned. These are usually temporary, but they can sometimes be permanent depending on the reason for the imposition or the disposition of the parties. Prohibitions and restrictions are not punitive; they are designed to ensure that whatever kept the first marriage from being a true marriage is addressed in order to prevent yet another invalid marriage from being contracted.

Prohibitions and restrictions come in the form of a monitum or a vetitum. A monitum is a warning of some kind—such as that one party was the victim of domestic violence or that the other is prone to alcoholism. It is a yellow light that warns a priest or deacon about previous difficulties before he officiates at the wedding of a party to an annulled marriage. The monitum is generally addressed to the individual charged with preparing the new couple for marriage.

A vetitum is more serious. The vetitum is a red light telling a priest or deacon that a new marriage may not proceed until certain conditions are met. It requires a specific action by the party to the invalid marriage—and possibly his or her intended spouse—before a new marriage can take place. If the husband, for example, is prone to serious drug addiction, a vetitum might require him to demonstrate that he has been drug free for at least a year before being allowed another attempt at marriage. Generally, these prohibitions or restrictions can be lifted only by the bishop or his judicial vicar.


The Sacrament of Marriage


It is well to remember that marriage is a sacrament when both husband and wife are baptized. Only God can dissolve a consummated sacramental marriage between two baptized persons—and he does so only through the death of one of the spouses. But the declaration of invalidity, or "annulment" process, is part of the larger teaching of the Church on marriage. Knowing what true marriage is, we can determine when it is not present and free the parties to enter into a true marital bond.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pete Vere is a canon lawyer and a Catholic journalist. He is the co-author of Surprised by Canon Law (Servant Books) and More Catholic Than the Pope (Our Sunday Visitor, available from Catholic Answers).

Jacqueline Rapp is a writer, a judge for the tribunal of the Archdiocese of Louisville, and an independent canonical consultant for several dioceses across the United States. She resides in Louisville, Kentucky, with her husband, Keith, and their daughters Alexandra and Sabina.


source http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605fea5.asp

[Nunsense]

scg- I think you are going to the wrong church if people there are arguing with you about abortion, divorce etc. If your church is too liberal, try another one. In San Diego, there is a Latin Mass community, very trad. Perhaps you need to get in your car and drive a little. I think there are very few people on this phorum who are going to disagree with you about issuse that the Church has ruled on - at least I hope not. So if the people you meet at your current church are advocating abortions, divorces, pre-marital sex, homosexuality etc, get out of there. I had to stop attending NO Masses here in Melbourne because of the rampant liberalism. I go to the EF now. You may need to go further afield to find a traditional parish but I know that San Diego has them. I have lived there before.

As for the annulment thing, once again, you know the wrong people. That is why I feel you are being too judgmental. Not because you object to some of the reasons you have heard, but because you are making a blanket judgement based on those observations. Annulments are allowed by the Church in her wisdom, and there are very valid reasons for allowing it. If you don't want to marry someone who has had an annulment, that is fine, but it is not your place to judge those who have had one. And you do come across as very judgmental about this. Simply say that you don't want to marry an annullee (or a non-virgin if that is what your real reason is) and leave it at that - then it is a personal preference rather than a judgment on those who have done something that is allowed by the Church for good and valid reasons (annulments).

As for me being judgmental of you - I am only telling you how you come across to me. I don't know how anyone else perceives you, but it seems to me that if your main aim is to find a partner, you might want to know how you are coming across to some people, especially if it is something that could be corrected by you to your own benefit. But free advice is worth what you pay for it.... so feel free to ignore it

Edited January 23, 2010 by nunsense

[southern california guy]

[quote name='nunsense' date='22 January 2010 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1264222822' post='2042660']
scg- I think you are going to the wrong church if people there are arguing with you about abortion, divorce etc. If your church is too liberal, try another one. In San Diego, there is a Latin Mass community, very trad. Perhaps you need to get in your car and drive a little. I think there are very few people on this phorum who are going to disagree with you about issuse that the Church has ruled on - at least I hope not. So if the people you meet at your current church are advocating abortions, divorces, pre-marital sex, homosexuality etc, get out of there. I had to stop attending NO Masses here in Melbourne because of the rampant liberalism. I go to the EF now. You may need to go further afield to find a traditional parish but I know that San Diego has them. I have lived there before.

As for the annulment thing, once again, you know the wrong people. That is why I feel you are being too judgmental. Not because you object to some of the reasons you have heard, but because you are making a blanket judgement based on those observations. Annulments are allowed by the Church in her wisdom, and there are very valid reasons for allowing it. If you don't want to marry someone who has had an annulment, that is fine, but it is not your place to judge those who have had one. And you do come across as very judgmental about this. Simply say that you don't want to marry an annullee (or a non-virgin if you are that is what your real reason is) and leave it at that - then it is a personal preference rather than a judgment on those who have done something that is allowed by the Church for good and valid reasons (annulments).

As for me being judgmental of you - I am only telling you how you come across to me. I don't know how anyone else perceives you, but it seems to me that if your main aim is to find a partner, you might want to know how you are coming across to some people, especially if it is something that could be corrected by you to your own benefit. But free advice is worth what you pay for it.... so feel free to ignore it
[/quote]

I do need to check out the Latin Masses down here.

[organwerke]

[quote name='southern california guy' date='23 January 2010 - 06:30 AM' timestamp='1264221042' post='2042642']

I'm not saying that he was crucified for this single issue. I'm just saying that it was one of the many issues he disagreed with the Pharisees about. [/quote]

First of all, when we listen to Jesus' words, we must consider how things worked at his times.
Farisees used to abandon their wives, also without reasons, and they left them without any economical, familiar support.

Then, we have to consider that every sacrament requires some conditions to be valid: for example, confession isn't valid if the person doesn't really repent.
Or marriage isn't valid if the spouses don't want to have children etc.

Edited January 23, 2010 by organwerke

[little_miss_late]

[quote name='southern california guy' date='22 January 2010 - 11:51 PM' timestamp='1264222268' post='2042652']

BACKGROUND
...

MORAL VALUES

...

FAMILY VALUES

...

CATHOLIC VALUES
...
[/quote]

I'm not saying that it's wrong to care about someone's background or the plans she has for her life. But I have found that it is more important to take people as they are, each day. When I see a guy with a checklist, my perception is, "wow, what if something changes in my life? What if I can't have 5 kids?"

Instead of all this about what you want your wife to be like, focus on what you want your marriage to be like and then find a woman who also wants a marriage like that. Maybe it seems picky but I think this small change in your focus might make a difference in the way you come across.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='23 January 2010 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1264266082' post='2042858']
I'm not saying that it's wrong to care about someone's background or the plans she has for her life. But I have found that it is more important to take people as they are, each day. When I see a guy with a checklist, my perception is, "wow, what if something changes in my life? What if I can't have 5 kids?"

Instead of all this about what you want your wife to be like, focus on what you want your marriage to be like and then find a woman who also wants a marriage like that. Maybe it seems picky but I think this small change in your focus might make a difference in the way you come across.
[/quote]

Well, I'm sure [i]everyone[/i] has their list of negotiables and non-negotiables, so to speak. But isn't that what this thread is about? Yes, it is true circumstances change, and the challenge is to try to align that with the "negotiables" and develop "plan B"s, so to speak.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='nunsense' date='23 January 2010 - 12:00 AM' timestamp='1264222822' post='2042660']
Simply say that you don't want to marry an annullee (or a non-virgin if that is what your real reason is) and leave it at that [/quote]

That would be fine if other people would leave it at that as well if he were to express such a preference.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='nunsense' date='22 January 2010 - 10:59 PM' timestamp='1264219162' post='2042625']
Look, you are obviously a nice guy looking for a nice girl, but sometimes we can get way too desperate about anything that we want, and all that comes across then is the desperation. I would say that you might want to back off from this whole search a little - not to forget about it entirely, but to "let go, let God" a little more. No matter how much you want this thing to happen, and in exactly the way that you want it to happen - God has His own plans. Maybe spend a little more time getting to know your faith again, since you have been around the block a few times with other religions. If you become a truly holy Catholic, rather than just someone who is very judgmental of others for their choices, then this will attract holy Catholic women (which is what you want, right?) to you more than all this shopping list stuff.

Spend more time in prayer, asking God to show you His will. Go to Adoration, pray the Rosary. Participate at your church, as acts of charity rather than as just ways to find women. Become a little self-forgetful and you will be surprised how much better things look. And ask the Blessed Virgin for her intercession in your problem. But stop trying to control it all so much! One day you are going to die, whether you end up married or not, so focus on building up your treasures in heaven, and let God take of the treasures here - He knows what you need.
[/quote]

He's not an old lady, he's a healthy male with (hopefully) many years ahead of him.

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' date='22 January 2010 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1264214358' post='2042558']
I am on Ave Maria Singles. And that is a very good website! I might just try it. But I think I'd want to broach the subjects very very carefully.
[/quote]
Are you saying you paid for a membership on the site, but have never actually used it?
And broach what subjects very carefully?
(Sorry, I'm just not exactly following what you're trying to say here.)

It's easy to search only for ladies whose status is "never married," as well as to only allow never married women to contact you. You can also screen out those who disagree with the Church on issues such as abortion and contraception.

Someone who opposes you on these issues will probably not be an acceptable match for you anyway, so why are you worried about whether your views might upset other people? (if I'm understanding you correctly)

[Winchester]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='23 January 2010 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1264267532' post='2042873']
He's not an old lady, he's a healthy male with (hopefully) many years ahead of him.
[/quote]
Well I think he's a very nice lady.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Winchester' date='23 January 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1264279100' post='2042963']
Well I think he's a very nice lady.
[/quote]

With a hockey stick as a weapon!

[southern california guy]

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='23 January 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1264266082' post='2042858']
I'm not saying that it's wrong to care about someone's background or the plans she has for her life. But I have found that it is more important to take people as they are, each day. When I see a guy with a checklist, my perception is, "wow, what if something changes in my life? What if I can't have 5 kids?"

Instead of all this about what you want your wife to be like, focus on what you want your marriage to be like and then find a woman who also wants a marriage like that. Maybe it seems picky but I think this small change in your focus might make a difference in the way you come across.
[/quote]

Adoption is a possibility.

The Mormons in Utah used to argue that it didn't matter who you married. They argued that a marriage was what you made of it. And I argued that you couldn't make as much of a marriage with somebody who didn't share the same values, principles and interests.

[b]MORMON GUY[/b] "I don't think that you're really the right sort of guy for her. It would break her parents heart if she didn't marry a Returned
Missionary. I know a much better woman for you."

[b]ME [/b] "Okay.."

[b]MORMON GUY[/b] "I think that you would be a very good father. You said that you wanted to have kids, right?

[b]ME[/b] "Yeah.."

[b]MORMON GUY[/b] "Perfect! She's already got five kids! And don't worry about her old boyfriends. There are restraining orders against both of
them. And she just got out of rehab and she's doing really well. I think that this time she's going to stay off of the meth for
good.
"So would you like to meet her?"

[b]ME [/b] "No thanks, it doesn't sound like she's really what I'm looking for.. I really like the woman I'm dating now."
[b]
MORMON GUY[/b] "Are you sure? Remember a marriage is what you make of it. And those kids could really use a male role model!"

[b]ME[/b] "Sorry.."
[b]
MORMON GUY[/b] "Freakin' homo!"

Edited January 24, 2010 by southern california guy

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' date='23 January 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1264295439' post='2043135']
Adoption is a possibility.

The Mormons in Utah used to argue that it didn't matter who you married. They argued that a marriage was what you made of it. And I argued that you couldn't make as much of a marriage with somebody who didn't share the same values, principles and interests.

[b]MORMON GUY[/b] "I don't think that you're really the right sort of guy for her. It would break her parents heart if she didn't marry a Returned
Missionary. I know a much better woman for you."

[b]ME [/b] "Okay.."

[b]MORMON GUY[/b] "I think that you would be a very good father. You said that you wanted to have kids, right?

[b]ME[/b] "Yeah.."

[b]MORMON GUY[/b] "Perfect! She's already got five kids! And don't worry about her old boyfriends. There are restraining orders against both of
them. And she just got out of rehab and she's doing really well. I think that this time she's going to stay off of the meth for
good.
"So would you like to meet her?"

[b]ME [/b] "No thanks, it doesn't sound like she's really what I'm looking for.. I really like the woman I'm dating now."
[b]
MORMON GUY[/b] "Are you sure? Remember a marriage is what you make of it. And those kids could really use a male role model!"

[b]ME[/b] "Sorry.."
[b]
MORMON GUY[/b] "Freakin' homo!"
[/quote]

That's funny, because [b]MORMON GUY[/b] sounds like some modern-day Catholics who have fallen for the misconception and employ the high-pressure manipulation tactic that there is one spouse picked out for us by God and if we reject that spouse we are somehow going against God.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='23 January 2010 - 09:36 PM' timestamp='1264296976' post='2043156']
That's funny, because [b]MORMON GUY[/b] sounds like some modern-day Catholics who have fallen for the misconception and employ the high-pressure manipulation tactic that there is one spouse picked out for us by God and if we reject that spouse we are somehow going against God.
[/quote]


But isn't Mormon guy saying the exact opposite of that. Isn't he saying it doesn't matter who you marry, its what you make of it.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='23 January 2010 - 08:37 PM' timestamp='1264297060' post='2043158']
But isn't Mormon guy saying the exact opposite of that. Isn't he saying it doesn't matter who you marry, its what you make of it.
[/quote]

Although on the surface it may seem the exact opposite, the result is the same: it is up to you to ditch your standards and give in and adjust to high-pressure manipulation, or else you will be called a "homo" by the [b]MORMON GUY[/b] or "someone who disregards God's will" by the modern-day pseudo-Catholic.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='23 January 2010 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1264297060' post='2043158']
But isn't Mormon guy saying the exact opposite of that. Isn't he saying it doesn't matter who you marry, its what you make of it.
[/quote]

Yes, but he is saying it to try to manipulate the other guy into marrying that woman.

The Mormons want their people to get married. They're sort of saying "Relax, don't be so picky, stop wasting time and worrying so much. Just choose somebody quickly -- and marry them!" I suppose that the truth is that most of us who are still single are pretty picky.

So while I agree with you I also totally agree with Norseman below.

[quote name='Norseman82' date='23 January 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1264301093' post='2043197']
Although on the surface it may seem the exact opposite, the result is the same: it is up to you to ditch your standards and give in and adjust to high-pressure manipulation, or else you will be called a "homo" by the [b]MORMON GUY[/b] or "someone who disregards God's will" by the modern-day pseudo-Catholic.
[/quote]

Exactly. It sounds like a very similar situation.

The Mormons in Utah are always matchmaking. They might want to "reward" a loyal member with a good wife. For example to be eligible to date the more desirable woman you must go on a Mission. Which is how they get the guys to go on the Missions. The Mormons also want to find husbands for woman with problems as well. And the problem is, how do you get a decent guy to marry her?

In the early days of Utah if there was a struggling single woman the Bishop might ask a wealthy member to marry her -- even if he already had one or more wives. Then she would be taken care of -- and non-member couldn't marry her. According to the old census's taken in Utah, there were actually more men than women in Utah back when there was polygamy. But that's not really surprising. That's the way the West was.